As you may have heard there have been a spate of “flash mobs” in the country recently. Basically a mob will
materialize out of nowhere and will do anything from dance briefly to physically assaulting others.
Still don’t know what I’m talking about? Here are a few examples running the gamut:
First – the bikini flash mob. A harmless display of people suddenly stripping down to their bathing suits and dancing in a park in California.
Second – Report of a flash mob at a Wisconsin state fair.
And let’s not forget plain old-fashioned rioting due to sporting events like the hockey game in Canada or the rioting in England a couple of weeks ago.
Here’s your scenario:
Use your own situation here. If you’re single without family how do you take care of yourself? Do you have an infant to defend like I do? Maybe you’re an older couple and you’ve got to take care of your wife or husband.
—————-
You’re walking through downtown (pick a city close by) with your family when you’re suddenly in the midst of a screaming mob. It started out as fun for them, but the crowd suddenly turns hostile striking out at those who aren’t with them. You witness a boy less than 20 yards away getting beat by two older teenagers. So far the crowd hasn’t turned on you or your family, but you feel it’s just a matter to time.
The nearest shelter is at least 100 yards away and you don’t see any way of getting there.
Being the careful prepper that you are you’re carrying a .40 caliber Glock with an extra magazine.
Suddenly two older teens – probably 17 or 18 years old – see you standing there with your family and turn towards you.
What do you do?
-Jarhead Survivor
No related posts.
First thing as it occurs, call 911! Secondly, I would give loud verbal commands and move my family towards safety. If confronted, I would again give loud verbal commands. I carry a glock with an xtra mag as well as a small dispenser of pepper spray and a powerful small flashlight and a knife. I am a law enforcement officer and would again, while moving the family, give loud verbal commands and then if that failed I would deploy the spray on the 2 subjects. I would continue to give loud commands and at this point step a few feet away in a lateral (sideways) movement. I would like to think that the spray “startled” them enough that I would be able to evade, if not I would have no choice but to engage and if there were no weapons involved I would have to go hands on (not fun) 2 on 1, I have been involved with defensive tactics for 18 years now and have been in my fair share of fights. I am not afraid to take a punch to the face (many people who have never been punched in the face or in a fight don’t know how they will react) If any type of weapon or they went towards my family I would hate to have to draw my weapon but deadly force use in defense of yourself or another in a situation is based on totality of circumstances. I would be very worried about the 3 or 4 that I couldn’t see. I am not that good to believe that I could not end up with tunnel vision! Then if all else fails, engage the targets! It is the last thing that I would want to do. I told myself when I first started the job that I would go home every day no matter what I needed to do. And I feel sorry for the poor dumb idiot that wants to mess with my family!
Tough scenario! I have trained many years to handle critical situations, not many if any at all have been with my family by my side. I have done a few things with them and have developed a code word where my son and wife don’t ask”what’s going on?” They just follow my commands(believe me the only time they would! LOL) I think situational awareness would play a big role in this, watch your surroundings, if it don’t feel right it ain’t right! Always condition yellow as Col. Cooper(RIP) would say!
Stay Safe All!
911 HA! I had ribs with my state cop brother in law yesterday in conversation he noted that having a gun is a good idea because when seconds count the cops are minutes away.
LOL- ‘dial 9-1-1′… so they can run farther away.
Srsly… cops are probably already on their way if not there, and one more call to an over burdened system isn’t going to get them there any more quickly.
Two burly late-teens looking menacingly at my family and me in the midst of a flash mob… if they understand what they’re seeing, they’ll walk the other direction cuz I’ll drop their asses within 21 feet. The only commands they’ll hear from this JQPublic will be their heads hitting the roadway.
My word of the day is ATTRITION! In this kind of situation, you need to make a hole and make the MOB not want to focus on you. There are two ways to do this, the first and most preferential way is to see it coming ad get over to the side out of the way and let it hapen. Abscond and get yourself out of there most ricki tick, the other is through shear attrition. Attack the first one that close to you and dont just fight with them, but instead destroy them, ten seconds of all out target specific attack and do DAMAGE break bones bring blood and MAKE A HOLE in the center and rest will mve away from you and go o with thier “activities” . This is not mearly an opinion but the voice of experiance in similer situations. ITs like a robbery, they dont come to get shot, they come for your car, your money your kid your wife or your life, but they dont come to get shot. As soon as they sense that level of resistance, they will run away and find another victim. The stats say 48% of people who defend themselves with a handgun never fire a shot(Cornel LAw around 2001+/-) the same goes here, as soon as the mob mentality figures out you are not a victim, they will avoid you and moe on the bigger objective. Avoidance is the best but attrition will work if you fight to kill.
I like what Spook said, at first I thought it was going to be a “lay down and take it” type of post, which rarely, if ever works out. As I read on however it was dead on. Don’t look for a fight but don’t let it consume you either, as a husband and father “destroy them” would definitely be in the cards…
~Primal
First and foremost, get the family the hell out of there by any means possible, even if it means picking up (or pulling out) the first and deadliest weapon you can find, and quietly backing out. Have all adult family members do the same. Inform your family to keep getting out of there if you get delayed – no matter what. If you bring out an obviously deadly weapon, and quietly make it visible without pointing it at anyone, most of the mob will quite readily make a hole for you.
The trick is to be as quiet and unobtrusive as possible, while at the same time giving a visible sign that you are not to be considered a victim. Keep your eyes open, and watch the people… avoid the aggressors if you can.
If someone wants to take something out on you (or a family member), try to move away (and move the family members away), facing the aggressor and making plain the weapon (if you have one). If the person won’t give up, then simply cut loose on that person without a word, a warning, or mercy. If it is a small group? select whoever appears to be the leader (or is the closest), aim to kill, and attack without hesitation. Everyone else in view (and earshot) will quickly get the hell out of your way if you are successful. Yes, it is likely illegal. Yes, it is definitely immoral by most religious tenets. However, you and your family will have the best odds of remaining safe until you clear out.
In a mob situation, most aggressors know full well that they have better odds of getting away with something, so they won’t hesitate to come after you, if they feel you are a good victim. If they suddenly find themselves on the wrong end of a firearm, or even the wrong end of a pipe or edged weapon, they will hesitate. If they find that the weapon is being used on them without warning or mercy, they will leave you alone and seek someone else, assuming they don’t get injured or die in the process.
However, odds are pretty good that keeping quiet, armed (with whatever is at hand if you are not otherwise armed), and out of the way will get you out safely.
Once you and the family are safe, *then* call 911.
Then, if you feel like a hero, wade back in and do what you can. My advice? Don’t. Let the cops handle it – you’re not trained to do anything about it, and trying will only get you injured and/or killed.
Yes, it sucks that a kid is getting thrashed in the hypothetical. Yes, it sucks that a lot of other innocent people are getting hurt. However, if you have a family, your first job is to keep them safe.
Brad & Spook have very good thoughts that somwhat parallel mine.
If those poor teenagers advance in an aggressive manor, they will receive an unwanted lesson.
First & foremost I tell the wife to make a head down bee line out of the crowd to a meeting point. Slow and steady, no eye contact & out. I then turn to the kids & size them up as far as who is the alpha aggressor & firmly stand my ground. I may be 57 but not one to be screwed with if someone elects to take a shot.
I was trained as a martial arts instructor & my “speciality” was multiple opponents. I loved it because the whole idea behind multiple sparrring is to expend as little energy as possible & mentally work the opponents back. Plus I spent a year & a half doing full contact sparring one night, hour and a half per night per week. Suffice it to say, I took a punch & kick or two … thousand. I was an athlete who liked taking things to the extreme to see how far I could go & fought many tough opponents in the city of L.A.
Unlike Brad – and there is nothing wrong with his method because he well trained & that works for him, I would remain relatively quiet because I would not want to draw external (from the 2 boys) attention.
If the boys advanced in an aggressive manor in order to hurt me or think I’m their lone zebra, then the alpha dog once within striking distance would be dropped very quickly, most likely with a hard side kick above the knee followed by a hard punch to the head (the nose would be the target because it bleeds profusely & looks bad). He would scream & cry, draw attention to his affliction & I’d be gone, head down through the crowd without eye contact as a guy on a mission. Then with luck to a better, more open & controllable situation.
Hustle the wife & kid out while running tactical situations through my head. The gun would be a very last resort but in the extremely unlikely event & was forced to defend for my life, I’d use it, no question. Like my hands & feet, the Glock is a weapon & would use it in the same proceedure – drawn out, aggressive stance, point it at a specific target, instruct to back off, get into the vehicle & go. If you’ve ever had a gun pointed at you, you tend to comply rather quickly & or move away expeditiously.
My mission is always escape & evade at whatever expense – safety first.
Good comment, but with all due respect, there’s one flaw…
Don’t bother with the martial arts. Most of these chumps *want* a fight. The idea is to show them in no uncertain terms that leaving you alone is the only way they will remain alive by the next morning, and to prove it if they don’t get the hint.
If you try to go all Bruce Lee on one, the others will still think that they have equivalent skills to match you, and will try for you anyway, but this time all at once. The hand-to-hand combat will also attract more fighters (or wannabe fighters).
…and no matter how bad-assed you think you might be, there are always a bigger and more bad-assed persons out there. Even if you’re the biggest and baddest in that riot, you won’t hold out for very long against ten people jumping your ass all at once, no matter how good your skills may be.
I know the rebuttal already – “I’ll only use the skills until it gets too bad, then I’ll use the gun!”
Not going to happen. By the time it gets too bad to fight off by hand, it’ll be way too late, and the people way too close, for you to be reasonably able to draw your weapon, let alone use it.
Meanwhile, you still have that family standing back by themselves while you’re off doing the Chuck Norris thang. Yes, that will happen, unless your family is also actively fighting – after all, fighting requires at least some space to accommodate limb movement.
Mind you, I’m not trying to disrespect you at all – but I did want to point out that maybe you should skip the whole macho routine and use the maximum force at hand to get the hell out of there.
RIGHT, IDK where you are or what you know or dont know. I do know where Ive been, what Ive done and what I know. Ive dealt with similer situations(usually street gangs organg members both as a private individual and in a security position) ost of the time if you grsb the biggest meanest looking SOB in the pack and stomp his guts out REAL QUIK the rest will back up. The mob mentality is group think kind of thing and they just sort of consue everything in thier path so if you create enoug hazard they will avoid you The best thing is to be aware and GTF out as soon as you see what is starting. JUST DONT BE THERE. And yes, if the situation required it for me to survive, your damn strait I will use my gun.
And, umm, while you;re busy stomping the guts out of the biggest, meanest SOB in the mob, who is taking care of your family?
Your first priority is to get out of there, period. Shooting the biggest, meanest SOB will accomplish that a lot faster than wasting time trying to kick his ass.
Oh, I dunno, Odd- I don’t think having your sidearm at SUL or low-front ready is a macho thing at all… sounds sensible to me. (wink)
You’ve never seen me hold a firearm – I look funny when I do it. :p
Move away quickly without running or otherwise attracting attention. Keep your eyes and senses open for the sneak attack. Use whatever you have for defense. Get out quickly. Being alert enough to see the danger before it reaches a peak is the best defense. Situational awareness.
All rules are out the window.
Mobs are NOT “multiple attackers” mobs are mobs, it’s somewhat akin to the saying that a person is smart, but people are dumb. Drawing attention of any kind is contraindicated. My back WILL be to someone, the idea that I would be able to “make a hole” and maintain it is ridiculous – BEEN THERE. There are no rules, only best choices, some of which really suck.
IF I draw my gun, it will be to discharge it in a warning manner – yeah I know “there no such thing as warning shots” – well, that’s not entirely true in a mob situation. Firing a shot or two into a planter or backstop will make you a hole. Just remember rule number 5 and you can avoid prosecution.
You are WITNESSING a beat down by a mob on a teenager. But being with my family, I can’t take the chance to intervene – the warning shots MIGHT draw off his attackers since they’re going to be hyper aware that they’re doing wrong and a gunshot MIGHT mean they’re in danger and cause them to run off. Again MIGHT. It’s the only option I can see accomplishing.
To my coming detractors. Take your NRA rules and “CQB” classes and stuff them. All I have to be able to do is articulate why I thought my life and the lives of my family were at risk of serious bodily harm or death. The beatdown 20yds away is my evidence. IF there is video that shows me firing off a couple of shots into a backstop, then the video will also show my family and the beatdown.
But after the shots, IF the two people who wer approaching aren’t running, it’s time to point the gun at them and if I’m close enough I’ll say, “Get me and my family to that building and you each get 200 bucks from the nearest ATM after this is over.” If they turn to help clear a path, follow. If them don’t and keep advancing, shoot the more agressive of the two first. Movement is a priority, do not stand still, do not “defend your ground” get out of dodge. Once in the building, seek a rear exit and run away. Don’t stop, don’t look back and don’t talk to anybody – as soon as the physical danger is lessened, put the gun away.
I’ve been in some mob situations as a bystander. It is so chaotic it’s impossible to describe. Give any portion of the mob ANY reason to think you’re vulnerable, and you become a victim. Verbal commands just don’t work, yelling doesn’t work, NOTHING works aside from limbic responses to danger. The problem with commands and threats is that after a few seconds the mob figures since they ARENT armed and you are, that you will NOT shoot – you end up drawing the attention of the mob as a whole and you go down. SOMEONE will be behind you attacking while someone in front of you draws your attention, it’s not some kind of plan – it’s what always happens as if by magic.
Movement is paramount, nothing else counts.
Pepper spray? I’d use it if I had it, but you’re going to get some backplash, it’s a gas after all – and while I might be able to shrug it off without too much trouble, my children and wife will NOT be able to. If I used it at all, it would be in very close quarters and it would occur without warning and STRAIGHT into their mouth. Eyes and nose will eventually cause them to break off (sometimes) but any pepper spray in the mouth will immediately be taken into the nasal cavity and wracking coughs WILL happen almost immediately.
This is not law enforcement, there is no rule in my state that says I have to warn somebody before using pepper spray and my experience has been that a surprise dose of it in the mouth is the more effective way to use it. I carry a fogger when I do, I don’t like streams because you have to be too precise and foam/gel is nice, but not as effective as fog.
The last time I checked in my state there was no obligation for a potential victim to “turn himself in” for any perceived crime. I’ve been in a lot of fights not of my making, and running away after eliminating or reducing a threat is the best policy. If the cops want to arrest me, then they can give me a call to come on down. 911? Like hell. Waste of time. The three basics,
Shoot
Move
Communicate.
“Bang, Bang…”
“You two, get my family to a building and you’ll both get 200 bucks.”
“Drop that stupid purse and grab the kids, MOVE.”
I will NOT be Reginald Denny.
I will survive, period. This isn’t a FIGHT.
Loved your response especially – “911? Like hell. Waste of time.” One thing I want to make clear is martial arts is self defense & not offense.
I wholeheartedly agree to move and escape. I too have been in the middle of 2 major riots & a dozen other mob situations and your are absolutely right – your back will be to some one & people are dumb.
My situation was meant to mean if the alternatives were nil & had to take a position, it would be very quick & decisive. I’m not setting up, meditating while taking deep breaths, tying my belt, stretching & saying “you want a piece of me?” what a joke – that is a guaranteed way to get your ass handed to you. As my brother was fond of saying “I may be dumb but I’m not stupid.”
Although I’ve been in a lot of (controlled environment) fights, the last thing I want to do is be Billy Jack. You can win a fight but if you lose a tooth or sight in one eye, you are the ultimate loser.
Yes, escape, go home and watch the news to see if the video crew caught you running away.
OR …. you can do the Al Qaeda text book move – use the wife & kids as your shield. Take comfort in the fact that your 70 virgins will ultimately forgive you.
Good response. Seriously… there’s a lot of good advice in there.
“You two, get my family to a building and you’ll both get 200 bucks.”
Now you’re talking. One time playing tourist in Vancouver BC I stupidly wandered away from the tourist section of town into a bad neighborhood. I paid 2 homeless people 5 bucks to walk with me back to the tourist section. On our way back they pointed out the folks that I should be worried about and the ones that were just homeless. I’d have completely missed half of the “scary dudes,” but once they pointed them out to me there was no denying that they were scary dudes. I actually enjoyed my homeless tour guides and learned a bit from them.
Small kid on shoulders, grab the wife and son in my free arms, and climb up on top of the crowd. Stepping on their heads as I run for the nearest balcony, where I would place everyone safely.
Once I knew everyone was safe, I’d rip out a streetlamp-pole and kick some butt.
But seriously… I would trust my guts to avoid the situation in the first place! I think that the folks that “get caught” in such events must surely be clueless.
Mobs are cowards… Only bold when the numbers are on their side.
There’s really no simple cure, except avoidance.
Since it’s a “what if…”
Wave your sidearm, and, YELL LOUDLY, to get the attention of the folks you want to move though, and you might become the new Moses!
ktakes 2 or 3 to take a man down. Haven’t you seen those police videos on TV showing cops getting jumped? And those are cops! and they have been trained.
My idea if I spotted a large group yelling and breaking windows would be to grab the wife and kids and get back to the car and get the hell out of there! Not trying to show off and be some type of bad-ass, and get your ass kicked or worse!
Nope. My hubs would get us completely out of the area…like miles away. A balcony wouldn’t do because it may be safe at that moment, but could deteriorate pretty quickly. I really appreciate the set up of the youngest on the shoulders. He could be a lookout if he can talk. You’re right about avoiding certain situations. We don’t go to sporting events, not just because it’s boring.
This is an interesting one. Since I’ll be taking the wife and kids to the zoo tomorrow I’ll frame my response in that venue. I’m going to assume I don’t have the weapon mentioned in the scenario (since I don’t have one in real life). Obviously the first thing to do is get the family out of harms way. I would use a stern but calm voice to make commands. If the crowd is just starting to form and it looks like the exits or high ground are still open my first option would be to duck for cover there. If we are ” in the thick of it” the best thing I can think to do would be to find a wall to back up against (at least decreasing the number of fronts I have to defend). While on the way there or once we arrive I would look for a weapon of opportunity. A souvenir shop may have walking sticks or a vendor would have cooking utensils (possibly a knife). Anything that would decrease physical contact and increase a show of force. Crouch down and try not to draw attention but be ready to strike with abandon if provoked.
I sure hope I don’t have to put this to the test.
Buy a gun and learn how to use it!!!!!
I recommend Frontsight in Nevada.
Putting your back up against something in a mob is a good way to get crushed to death. Move towards open areas.
I would look them straight in the eyes and keep moving. I would make sure my gun was now showing and as we close in on each other, we stop. I ask them “didn’t I take you to jail last week”? I never say I’m a cop but have planted a seed. Never be a victim. Your either the predator or the prey. Now if there is 15 or 20 of them, I hope my wife is armed too. After 15 years of working high risk “war zone” areas in America’s major cities, I’ve seldom had to do more than control my body language and let my weapon be seen. If you will only practice, drill and rehearse (PDR) for this you will be able to respond to a situation. Far too many people react without being prepared. The difference in responding vs. reacting is responding is the dog waging the tail. Reacting is the tail waging the dog. Remember they want you to cower as prey but they are not ready to take a bullet from someone who appears to be highly trained, and for gods sake don’t engage them in conversation, silence and a few practiced words are powerful. Any more than that and they will know how scared you (we) are. Best of luck to you and never let them see you sweat.
Kids are small enough that they can both be carried. I carry a fairly menacing tactical folder that would be presented to the two teenagers who are possibly planning an attack. My body language and the knife -should- tell them that I’m not a victim and there are easier pickings to be found elsewhere.
We would try to use the chaos and group mentality as our diversion. The intensity and violence is going to be highest around the initial fights that broke out. Those that are looking for a fight are going to flock to that general area to get in on the action. Those staying on the outer fringes would be less likely to attack and the density of people would be lower possibly giving us a way out. As a last ditch effort, the glock is there – a warning shot fired might disperse the crowd.
I hate to leave the kid being attacked, but my focus is on my family at the moment. Once we get out of dodge, we call 911. If my family is secure and I see an opening to give first aid to the kid or bring him to safety, I’ll do it if the crowd has moved on and I see an opening to safely do it.
One shot into the ground, and start waiving the gun. I’m pretty sure everyone will hear that shot, stop and want to keep a bit of a distance from the strange little woman waving the gun screaming “I’ll shoot” as she and the family are moving away from the scattering crowd. :)
Your in a city with paved sidewalks and streets, in a crowd, where is the ricochet going>>>? Warning shots are great for the Navy, but not for real life preppers.
First warning shot into the closest perp
I’ll go for that.
I’m thinking the same thing here… you don’t just wave the thing around and waste ammunition.
Forget the macho BS and posturing for a moment, and think only of objective reasoning:
If you shoot to kill the nearest direct aggressor (that is, someone who is coming after you), then when he drops, the rest will realize very quickly (that is, the moment when they see the muzzle flash, and the first shot enter their companion’s torso) that maybe picking on you and yours is a very bad idea. Their first instinct will be to run like hell and get out of your way, hoping to not get shot in the process.
Your job is to try and get out of the mess, and to do so by any means necessary. Most folks will see your weapon, your head on a swivel, and slowly moving away from the crowd, which adds up to one thing: they’re not going to be stupid enough to take a chance at you. The few who might try anyway will learn very quickly that doing so is a very bad idea (either by getting shot or by seeing someone get shot), and everyone else gets concrete reinforcement of the idea.
Meanwhile, again, your whole goal here is to get to safety.
They’ll probably think you’re a threat to their lives and pull their guns and shoot you or hit you in the head with something solid and heavy.
If it were an adult being attacked I may react differently but if its a child I believe I have a duty to defend his life, particularly given the fact that I am able to. So simply put this is what I would do:
Place myself between my family and the crowd, get them moving to shelter, have someone call 911, issue a loud verbal command for them to stop, threaten deadly force, use deadly force.
If I can’t place myself between the crowd and my family I would get myself and my family out of the midst of the crowd before revealing that I have a side arm because I don’t want to get outflanked and risked being disarmed by superior numbers.
Luckily, I don’t have kids to watch out for. If I am in the city, which is VERY unusaul for me, I would likely be with my girlfriend. In that case, depending on the size of the “mob” , and where we are in relation to the “action”, I would have her “file-in” behind me and relive my days as an offensive lineman and start plowin’ a hole for her to get to safety. It has worked for me before and likely would again.
Again IF I am in a city it would likely be outside of my home-state, so I wouldn’t be carrying my M1911 because I wouldn’t be licenced to carry it there, however I ALWAYS have a folding knife, a mini-mag flashlight and a Gerber multi-tool. The flashlight and the multi-tool make good “fist-packs”, and the knife would be a last-ditch weapon. I would place myself between my girl the guys who are apparenty “feelin’ froggy”, but if she needs to she is more than capable of defending herself. Before they got to close I would warn them to stay back, doubt it would do any good, but it would make me feel better about beating the piss out of them. When they get close, a right hook to the temple for the closest one, then jabs to push back the second, followed by another right hook again to the temple. I found out in my boxing days that that is usually the quickest and easiest way to end a fight.
If I could get my girl to a safe place, and get to the kid gettin’ beat, then I would try to get him out of there and administer first-aid. I am not diluted enough to think that I can take on an entire crowd of people, or think that I am invincible (my back and knee injuries proved that to me long ago), but I would try to help the victims of the mob as much as possible.
Of course this is all assuming that I was absent-minded enough to not notice the situation getting rough; and the fact that I HATE being in a crowd, can’t stand being in the city, and I tend to be hyper-observant while I am with my girl would make this situation unlikely for me to end up in.
chefbear, where you been man? we’re missing you over at M.D.’s blog. miss them recipes too. you should see how many folks from your state hit the blog after the quake:) oh, check the web for states that accept your ccp. you’ll be amazed, just stay out of yankeeville. take care.
I had back surgery a few weeks ago, and have been kinda in-and-out of it because of the inentense pain and the medication to try and control it. I am not familiar with M.D…. what do you mean? I am working on a couple posts for Jarhead right now, begining with the continuation of the fishing gear series I started a while back. I know there were a ton of folks freakin’ out about the earthquake/huricaine combo within a couple weeks of eachother, some of them that I know seemed to finally get the point that prepping is a good idea for everybody, but I resisted the urge for “I told you so”. Thanks, will do, and ya’ll take it easy as well.
Carry a gun. Always. 2 shots in the air, then legs. If really necessary, into center of mass. Run like hell.
It seems pretty impractical to me for any prepper or doomsday conspiracy theorist to find themselves anywhere where there are enough people to have a flash mob of that sort. I would be prepared before entering a place like that because I’m that paranoid, but thats just me. Even when I go to a restaurant or a walmart, I always look for all the exits and pay attention to them wherever i am in the building, pay attention and watch everyone else and their attitudes, e.t.c. and so on. carrying a gun would be illegal for me because I’m not twenty one yet, but i always carry my knife, mace, and three years krav maga skills i hope i still don’t have to use. multiple targets is indeed tricky enough, but a mob is too many, spook, jason, and temlar’s comments to me like the best ideas yet, but try to stay away from mass amounts of people and haven’t really mentally prepared for this sort of a situation. Mall make me incredibly nervous. lol
If I can’t leave, try to get to a doorway or stairwell to cut down on being taken or shot from behind and so I have the higher ground. Been there, done that, with a small mob.
The first two people I groin shoot and start aiming for the groins of others advancing, in case there are stupid people that think getting shot in the chest or head is an option. If that does not stop them, I shoot them in the head or center of chest.
I am not going to waste any rounds firing in the air or my breath yelling. I will let the 1st two people I shot, that are not dead, do all the yelling and screaming.
I am unlikely to help anyone until my own family is out of harm’s way because they will be a constant liability until then.
I would hand the pepper spray to the wife.
Wow, that’s mean!!! I honestly never thought about that, the debate is usually head or gut shot (I say gut), but if your aim is good and you connect with the groin you definitely are going to make the other guys think twice.
I would calmly like them in the eye and tell them “These are not the droids you’re looking for…” jedi mind tricks work wonders on the weak minded.
Ah, I needed some comedy relief!
my next move depends on theirs. we’re very light skinned, plump, fifty-somethings. if they begin to close the distance between us, they get the treatment Padre suggested. i won’t have time to think about their motives… how did i get myself into a situation like this, and only have two magazines? i’ll worry about that after i change my underwear. (unless the E.R. people have already disposed of it for me…)
I think getting out ASAP is our best bet. I don’t have guns other other weapons I carry on my person ( I live in Canada)..so bottom line, my husband would grab our daughter and we would quickly get out. I consider myself a pretty observant person so I would like to think that we would be able to detect a bad scene about to break out and scram. Many public washrooms (not port-a-potty) do have locks from the inside and truth be told that would be the first place if there was one available that I would hide.
The other thing that struck me when I was reading this was that flash mobs don’t only occur where there are large fairs, or carnivals or things like that. I am sure I read recently about a flash mob that walked into a convenience store and just starting looting. Not a full on riot, but it was organized via social media and the thugs converged for no reason other than to steal everything that was not nailed down.
Anyway my reason for evening bringing this up is to say these flash mobs don’t just attack at large events in big cities. Apparently these can happen almost anywhere.
“Many public washrooms (not port-a-potty) do have locks from the inside and truth be told that would be the first place if there was one available that I would hide.”
That would be a great idea.
I wouldn’t be in that situation to begin with. I stay away from crowded places such as malls, fairs, etc. The only place i go with crowds is the supermarket and the last time 2 kids made a move on me I assumed they were going to grab for my purse and I slammed them with the shopping cart while yelling for the manager.
This isn’t the 1950′s people. Keep your family out of harms way to begin with.
First off, there is something called disparity of force. If someone is advancing on you and they were just hitting someone else, that does not mean you can immediately pull your weapon and shoot them. You have to be able to justify your actions. And for those of you who think you can pull out a weapon and shoot a warning shot and think the police won’t be looking for you, you are dead wrong.
Now to my answer: Assuming you get caught up in the mob, first look to see if I can backtrack out of the mob area. If not, and the only thing to do is go forward, get against a wall to reduce your coverage area. If the mob is staying on the sidewalks (as often happens) get in the middle of the road and run. If the mob is everywhere, then get to the wall and have the wife call 911.
Keep moving. As the two guys are advancing on you, make eye contact to let them know you see them. Sometimes that will stop them because you’ve now seen them and identified them as a threat. Give loud verbal commands such as “get back” “halt” etc. If you have pepper spray, definitely use it if they keep advancing. If you need to, then yes, go to your firearm.
Just realize that if you are walking along in the mob, you see the kid being beaten and the two people turn toward you. If you just pull out your gun and shoot them because they are advancing on you. No commands, nothing else other than they were just beating someone and turned toward you, You WILL be arrested and charged with murder. You may not be convicted, but you will be charged. Do not ever aim for the legs or do warning shots. If you pull the trigger, then do it to stop the threat. You are responsible for every round fired. If you do a warning shot and someone else gets shot, you’re responsible. If you shoot them in the legs, you are still responsible and have to defend your actions.
While trying to fight hand to hand is not ideal, if that’s what you have, it’s what you have. The best bet is to keep moving and take appropriate action based on the totality of the circumstances. I’ve been caught in flash mobs as a police officer and they are not fun. And for those who say putting your head down, I disagree for the simple reason that you are looking down and are now not aware of your surroundings and could easily be blindsided.
Yes and No.
If you’re in New York City, Washington DC, or anywhere else that bans personal firearm possession, then yeah, you stand a great chance of becoming legal toast if you pull out a Glock and start using it (assuming the police find/catch you – something that may or may not happen in a large enough riot/mob scenario).
Yes on the eye contact. You want the aggressor to know you’re watching him.
If the aggressor refuses to back off after said eye contact (in spite of seeing a bare pistol)? I figure that in such a situation, the sight of a gun pointed at the aggressor(s) is warning enough (good luck shouting anything in a mob and expect to be heard). If he’s smart enough to turn away and leave before the trigger kicks over, then he won’t get shot.
Going through the motions of warning also costs you time that you do not have. You simply cannot afford to stand there for even a second longer than necessary. If an attacker isn’t smart enough to figure out that ‘gun pointed at me = warning of probable death’, that’s his problem.
I figure a second of insuring he sees it pointed at him is long enough warning. If he moves one step closer after that, the trigger gets pulled, I insure that I hit the body mass and stopped him, and then fire again if it is necessary. I then I do my level best to get me and spouse the hell out of there, checking frequently to see if he or his buddies are moving towards me (odds are very good they won’t, but one cannot take chances)
I don’t believe in warning shots in a riot, for two reasons:
* that bullet may ricochet and hit an innocent party.
* shooting skyward means the bullet will either come back down outside of the riot area, or hit an upper floor of a building – either of the two can easily injure an innocent party. If I’m going to be up on charges for shooting someone or damaging property, it may as well be for shooting the aggressor directly, and not accidentally shooting someone innocent.
Morally and legally the threshold for deadly force is the reasonable concerned that an unjust aggressor will threaten your life. In the given scenario a child being beat sounds like a potential life and death situation, also mob violence legally decreases the threshold for justification. In addition two teenagers approaching in a menacing fashion may not justify deadly force in a normal situation but in a mob situation where two attackers could easily become five or ten frenzied attackers most juries would accept a lower threshold for the use of deadly force, add to this our concern for the safety of our family and I would not hesitate pulling my 357 and unloading on the two attackers.
Adam is absolutely correct. Once you discharge that firearm you are going to talk to the cops. You had better be ready. Warning shots are for movies. Situational awareness is the key. PAY ATTENTION!! Don’t let yourself get caught up in a situation like this in the first place.
The only way I would get caught in something like this is if I were at work. Having said that there would be no family with me. Unfortunately that would also mean no gun either. Movement, fast and in a direction away from the most action. Anything can become a formidable weapon if used with enthusiasm/intent. You have to be ready to end the aggression. Those of you that have never been involved in a situation like this will have to get over your weak stomachs and your inate concern for others. They do not care about your well being. DON’T CARE ABOUT THEIRS. If you have to swing or shoot do it with the intent of stopping them. If you draw blood that will get everyones attention. Unless of course you get weak in the knees and let it show.
You have to be ready to bring the pain. Lots of it. In other words you have to be ready to act violently…………
If you come to the unfortunate situation where you feel you need to draw and shoot your sidearm, DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE! Surrender your weapon, invoke your Miranda rights, and get a lawyer–let him talk to the police for you.
First off, your Miranda Rights only attach when you are in custody (under arrest) and are being interrogated. Therefore, without both of those things, you have no Miranda Rights.
If you are involved in a shooting during a mob, and you refuse to talk to the police, believe me, the police will talk to everyone else who comes forward and they will go with the information they have. If the information they have is from a few other people around you who do not see the scenario as you do, and you don’t talk, guess what. You now have a murder charge to beat.
If you talk to the police and tell them exactly why you pulled your weapon and why you felt the need to use it, then you stand of chance of it being ruled justified/self-defense. But you had better have more to it than just two kids who had beat another kid turning toward you. You must be able to articulate the need for deadly force.
I’m agreeing with Adam here.
If the police find out you shot someone, and catch up to you, you had damned well better be free with the information and up-front with the reasons why you did it.
The “never say die” attitude can be a valuable tool, but honestly there are some situations you cannot escape. Despite the empowerment of weapons, defensive tactics and situational awareness, they demonstrate just how dangerous these situations are. I know a guy who was at a large outdoor college party and was in a “flash mob.” I don’t care what training you have, anybody would’ve been destroyed in that situation. He was beaten to such a bloody pulp it’s odd that he’s even walking around these days. It was his fault for being in that situation. When I say that I avoid public intoxication or large gatherings people tell me that I’m not living my life for fear of what may happen; I make accusatory sheep noises. I remember asking another cadet after a defensive tactics class “what would you do if I was pointing a pistol at your chest?” (I’m just far enough away to avoid a disarm but way too close for him to run) He said “Uh, I’d probably die!” it was so refreshing to hear some reality I convulsed laughing for 5 minutes. In other words, besides walk to safety, maintain control of my people, and dominance of the situation, there isn’t anything special to be done.
Any shot placement other than center of mass is a wasted round, unless you can put a headlock on one of the perps and while holding the muzzle to his ear have him “escort” you off the premises haha :) Be careful not to press so hard that you push your gun out of battery or it won’t go click.
Actually been in something pretty close to that.
From my experience anything you put in your hand, knife, gun, pepper spray, will get grabbed out of it. The ‘ruck’ I was in was so close quarters and fast moving that you couldn’t have drawn and aimed anything anyway. Plus, if there’s a bad guy with a brick behind you and he sees that gun, he’s (or she’s) going to mash that brink into your skull. Any cop that is near by is going to see a rioter with a gun. Don’t pull the gun.
I was alone in mine. 90% of the people around me looked like they just wanted to get the fuck out of there. Me and the folks around me gathered into a tight little knot of people, maybe 10 folks, and used our body mass to push our way out of the mob scene. Once we got to the edge of the mass of people we ran like hell. There was no command and control, no one took charge and made it happen, it just happened. The whole thing was over for me in about 2 minutes.
There’s probably nothing you can do to help the kid that’s getting beat. The guys doing the beating have buddies and their going to hit you in the back of the head with something if you intervene.
I wouldn’t bother with 911. They’ll get there when they get there.
If someone tries to steal your bag or pick your pocket, let them. Nothing on you is worth your life. You’re as much of a risk of being trampled by the crowd as being hurt by a bad guy. Just get out.
That is assuming the bad guy has room to use the brick. But, the bad guy behind you is going to have the drop on you. They know what’s going on and are looking to brawl. Chances are they’re going to have room to use whatever weapon they have.
Going back to the scenario, the only real threat you’re facing is the two teens teens that are looking at you. According to the scenario, they’re not doing anything threatening, they’re just looking at you. So are they really a threat? Maybe they see a mom and a dad and they’re scared shitless and want some help?
If they were, then they would definitely turn tail and run when you pulled you gun! No need to shoot anyone.
I just thought it was interesting that everyone assumed the two kids were a threat. The scenario sorta implies that they are, but its not specifically stated that way.
What are the cops going to think when they see you in the middle of a riot pulling a gun on two unarmed teens? Pulling a gun in a crowd like that is a good way to get yourself shot or your skull caved in with a brick.
One of the reasons I avoid crowds is because of various little scenarios like this one keep rolling though my head.
There’s a big crowd of people, something goes wrong in the crowd and someone feels threatened so he pulls a gun. Someone else sees him pulling his gun and pulls their gun and shoots him. Someone else hears the shot and looks over to see a man pointing a gun in his direction, so he dives to the ground, pulls his gun and shoots the guy. This time the bullet over penetrates and hit not only the guy with the gun, but the guy behind him as well. That guy’s wife, hearing the shots and seeing the commotion has been digging through her purse for her .380 and finds it just in time to see her husband get shot. She points her gun at the shooter and they both fire killing each other. The domino effect continues onward until everyone in the crowd is dead.
Different situations will necessitate different tactics of course.
The way I am envisioning the situation described, not having been noticed, I would quickly move out of the midst of the crowd (in reality it will be a cool day in hell when I get caught in the midst of a crowd in the first place) once I have secured my flanks pulling my sidearm becomes a more viable option, and from a tactically sound position with my family moving to safety I would feel that I could do something for the boy.
Of course if I were surrounded then my primary concern would of course be my family, not the boy, and I definitely would be more hesitant about pulling a weapon without someone to watch my flank.
RM, You know who I am…
Brad,
If you really are a cop I suggest you and your department consult me on how to handle this and how to react because this is all wrong! Spook45 hit the nail on the head. I will start out by saying the best way to win a fight is to avoid one completely.
Duck in to a building, alley or just the shadows but be out of sight and off the ground level if possible. For me, I f I were in this situation it would most likely be at an event like a concert and I would have 3-4 kids in tow and maybe a teenage boyfriend of thiers with me. He might as well be a girl in this sitch because he and I are nothing against a mob.
Get out of sight, stay quiet and avoid a confrontation. If you can not do that go to plan B…
Plan B is get yourself in a corner and hopefully you are only boxed in by a few skinny wimps who are fueled by the mob but are basically useless one on one. By getting in a corner you reduce the avenues of attack by half!!! Instead of 360 degrees of approach, they now have 180 or less. Find a weapn to equilize the sitch, even a garbage can lid to deflect punches and kicks helps.
If at all possible try to have a plan C and how to get out of there if you have to run your ass off to save it. Plan C in my opinion is better than B but you may have to make a stand if forced to! I dont have the option of running away because I cant run from injuries and, my kids are most likely there so I have to fight no matter what.
Again, the best way to win a fight is to avoid one. Ask any Navy SEAL if he has avoided 95%+ fights or not? Small numbers against large numbers are a recipe for disaster. Live on to fight another day!
Stay Angry my friends. God bless the families of the victims of 9/11/01. I lost 6 friends and former co-workers that day. I sifted through ash, debris and occasional fragments of bodies in the days following. That day and the weeks following will forever be etched in my mind and on my soul. Some of us will never forget…………….or forgive…………………may the Battle of Fort Mc Henry live on………..
Walk away slowly facing them. I know a guy who knows a guy who has cooled down some very bad situations by putting his hand on a concealed weapon without taking it out. If someone reaches into their waistband or under a jacket in a scenario like that it means a weapon. Amazing how people calm down when they face a confident person who almost surely has a piece.
Gets you out of dealing with the thugs OR the cops. After that walk quickly away keeping good situational awareness.
Also note that most if not all of these flash mobs happen at areas with lots of teens and 20 s0methings and to the best of my recollection, happen at night.