Guns, Laws, and Politics: What Happens if TSHTF and You Don’t Have a Firearm?

The recent theater shooting in Colorado has once again ripped the band-aid off the gun control argument and some politicians are calling for stricter gun control laws.

“I can tell you that I don’t think there’s any other developed country in the world that has remotely the problem we have,” New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said after the shooting rampage in Colorado.


Needless to say Mayor Bloomberg would like to see stricter gun control laws in the nation, but for the most part gun control is one of those areas politicians start tap dancing as soon as it’s brought up.  shotgun

But this isn’t a post on gun control laws.  Today I’d like to do a little “What if…” thinking.

Thought Experiment

Let’s do a little thought experiment here.  Assume there’s a been a catastrophe of some kind that affects the entire nation.  An economic collapse of one kind or another is always a favorite – maybe one based on a crop shortage during an extremely hot year.  Sound familiar?

Instead of a resounding crash it’s been a long drawn out process.  First there were higher prices for food on the market shelves, then there were even higher prices for anything containing corn products including beef (which feeds on corn), finally, there was little food left on the shelves at all.  The dollar is worthless and the rest of the world has figured out that America is never going to repay the debt they owe.  More printing has lowered the value of the dollar to a joke.

Due to new laws no Americans are allowed to have any kind of firearms at all.  People are hungry and will do anything to get something to eat for their families.  Food riots break out and the only people with guns are the military and police and citizens are turned away with little or nothing to eat.

Crime ramps up and break-ins start happening to people who are rumored to have food stores in their houses.  For the sake of fair play let’s assume that even the criminals don’t have firearms (haha!  I know!  Stupid, right?)

Now let’s get personal.  You’re at home one night with your family and you hear people outside the house.  Suddenly a brick comes flying through the window and four or five big guys come barreling through with axes, long knives, and baseball bats.  What are you going to fight them off with?

My personal inventory is me as a fighter, Mrs Jarhead to grab the kids and hopefully get out of the house alive (doubtful, but we’ll try) before they take me down.  If I’ve got an axe or a long knife I might possibly hold them in a hallway four or five seconds if I’m lucky before they break through.  This ain’t the movies ya’ll and I hold no illusions of being a superman.  I’m strong and I’m fast, but four guys will take down one guy in almost every situation every time.

In this situation they’ll get in and take whatever I have possibly including our lives.  It wouldn’t matter if I had stuff cached outside because food does very little for the dead.

The good thing about a firearm is that it’s a great equalizer if you take time to learn how to use it properly.  A 4’11” woman can take a 6’4” man down quite effectively if she can hit him with a shotgun.  It’s also a great deterrent.  If she shoots the first guy coming through the door or window whoever is behind is likely to decide it’s a little too much trouble.  If not at least they’ll proceed with a lot more caution.

In my situation Mrs Jarhead can now add to the fight.  She’s an excellent shot and would not hesitate to shoot someone threatening one of our children.  With the two of us blazing away the odds just significantly improved in the scenario I mentioned above even if they’re shooting back, because we have the advantage of being dug in and in a familiar environment.

My conclusion it that without a weapon after a SHTF event you may become a victim.

Some Hard Questions

In the interest of being fair maybe we should ask ourselves a few questions though.  Would we as a nation be better off with some limited amount of gun control?  Should we have more extensive background checks before selling guns to any Tom, Dick or Harry that can click a mouse button?

Here’s another question:  We always assume that if and when TSHTF that crime will run rampant and once-good-but-now-desperate people will do things that will require others to protect themselves.  What if that doesn’t happen?  Maybe guns wouldn’t be necessary after all?

Now don’t come aboard me with guns blazing here.  I’m just asking some questions that deserve some thought.

So what do you think?

Sound off below.

-Jarhead Survivor

74 comments… add one
  • Country Boy August 3, 2012, 8:50 am

    I don’t believe gun control would ever be “limited”. It a camel nose under the tent. And every time something bad happens, another inch comes in. And despite best efforts’ another tragedy will always come up, and be the rallying point for the next restriction. Did you read about the man in China that killed 8 people with a knife? Or that in England they invented a stab proof knife? Blaming, then restricting objects is a never ending cycle as it ignores the element that cause all of this, bad people.

    As far as not needing guns, in hopes the hungry mob won’t resort to violence. Could not that argument be made for all prepping? No need to store water, we can trust the city water system. No need to store food, trust the distribution system. No need to have guns, no one will try to do you harm. I may be off base, but I think they would all follow the same logic.

    Prepare for the worst, and pray every day your proven wrong.

  • Don Ruane August 3, 2012, 9:20 am

    Good post, but let’s reenter my home town called REALVILLE.
    No one will go wrong, in any outcome ” preparing for the worst, wild praying to GOD for the best, leaving the outcome to him and enjoying our lives in the meantime.
    Blessing to you and yours.

    Don R

  • irishdutchuncle August 3, 2012, 9:23 am

    what happens? your wife and children are given to bad men, to use as play-things. they may even let you watch for awhile…

    of course you should have “bugged out” ahead of time, and left them the things which could be replaced. you could harden your perimeter, so they go on to your neighbors house…

    no, wait; fortifying your own home is against the law now too.

    any Tom Dick or Harry that can click a mouse button? thats a specious argument. firearms purchased on line, still need to be delivered to an “FFL”. (so you may as well just order through the local guy, unless you’re buying some rare “collectable”. curio/relic pieces can sometimes be delivered) we already have more gun laws than we need.

    • T.R. August 3, 2012, 10:10 pm

      I order guns on line , I first look around locally , then look on line , I have found some very good deals on new weapons that saves me a few hundred dollars , here and there . All money I can buy other needed things with instead of paying retail . You dont pay sales tax , and even after you pay your FFL guy ( $20 , no hardship when you just saved $200 + )
      just sayin

      • T.R. August 3, 2012, 10:13 pm
        free shipping

        there are others . just get them however …..while you can .

      • irishdutchuncle August 3, 2012, 10:24 pm


        and my local guy is a bit “pricy” at that.

        he still has to perform the NICS check before he can deliver the piece does he not?

        • T.R. August 3, 2012, 11:05 pm

          I think that he does , its pretty fast tho . The guy I use does it as a side line , and sells insurance for his real job . Kind of wierd , I remember going to his office through the front door and leaving out the back door with my Ruger . The second time I just went to his house .

          • lee August 4, 2012, 1:57 am

            if thay have a fedral firearms lesins thay must allways do a check (aaaalllllllways), that having been made clear. if you have conceled wepons permet thay can take the number off the permet and use it on the paper
            work becouse you went through the back ground check to get your conceled wepons permet .

          • No Name August 4, 2012, 8:42 pm



            Sorry, misspellings drive me crazy especially nearly 20% of them.

          • T.R. August 4, 2012, 8:45 pm

            I dont know if its true but it seems that once your in the system , it goes a lot faster .

  • Spook45 August 3, 2012, 9:40 am

    Rule number one, out of sight; out of mind. This is your best bet when unarmed when things are coming apart at the seems. Rule Number two, learn to use what you have. There are some things that just cant be taken away from you, knowledge and skill are the BEST tools to have although I do prefer my trusty 1911, Say you get swept up in something that you dont want to be n, skills are where its at. Everyone needs a good workout regimine, find a Karate school or someother Martial Art and go diligently until you at least make it to your black belt. This is knowledge you can use without weapons. In larger metro areas where there is more to choose from, I would suggest Isreali Krav Mega. ITs canned in style, easy to learn and very street applicable(that means it works in the real world) Rule Number three, goes back to rule number one, disengage and avoid the fight until you are better prepared, choose your battles(Sun TSU!!) Learn some other skills like Knife play, with a little elbow grease you can make a rudimentory knife out of lots of dfferent things, find someone that teaches Kali or Pinjak silat and learn some sound knife fighting skills that you ca aply defensively (or offensivley should the situation require it) and practice those skills. Take an urban survival coarse and lear how to escape zip ties, zip cuffs duct tape and real cuffs so that if you are snatched up and thrown in the trunk of a car you can at least have a fighting chance to escape, kidnapping becomes big business in failing states. A few NON GUN skills will help prepare you fopr the worst if you loose your gun and happen not to have it for whatever reason. I once met a Vietnam vet that was at one of the fire bases that was over run, they fought til thay ran out ammo and this gu had 15 confirmed kills with an Etool and a Kbar, pproof positive that you CAN SURVIVE in total breakdown/strife situation. TRIAN TRAIN TRAIN!

    • T.R. August 5, 2012, 12:23 pm

      Also , if you have a Serious group near you , train in the old weapons . Specifically the quarterstaff and dagger . Two weapon fighting is very good to learn . If you find yourself out with no guns , pick up a branch , pipe , or rebar …….you have a quarterstaff ……..if your good with that , you can beat multiple opponents . Many other cross overs for the shorter reach fighting styles as well . Get acquainted with the good old fashion ” Zip Gun ” and how to make them . They are usually only one shot and typically made of pipe , so after you fire it off , you still have a club . But yeah , not being in the situation to begin with is always best , and unarmed the odds are not very good alone .

  • 3rdMan August 3, 2012, 9:57 am

    Short answer is do not turn in your firearms, because I will not be looking to hard for them when I come if I come at all. If you do have to use one than just say you went hand to hand with the intruder and disarmed him and used his own weapon on him! Private purchases weapons would be needed for this option.

  • Charles,,,, August 3, 2012, 9:58 am

    Such speculative thoughts, very good indeed, there is always so much to learn and do, if nothing ever happens I must say this will have become the ever best hobby ever…. so primitive thoughts, here we go, short story, a friend in Iraq as a contractor which they were not allowed to carry, concerned, he wrote and asked what could he do if overrun, I asked if he could make a spear to have on hand that would help him aquire a rifle in the eventuality, he is now a fine spear maker/chucker, be nice to have a few hanging on the wall, crossed in the middle, easily removed, theres reach, extension, throwing ability, long knives are available cheap, more lessons to learn while having fun ehh….mini crossbows, biggah crossbows, swords, blow gunz, and on and on and on….

  • William August 3, 2012, 9:59 am

    The outcome of the scenario you describe happened in 1932 in Ukraine. Armed party members took the food, even the seed for the next year, to the cities and let the extra mouths starve.

  • Joe August 3, 2012, 10:00 am

    I’ve had people tell me that “Nothing that I own is worth taking another’s life to keep it.” They content that homeowners should do nothing during a home invasion since life is more important than stuff.

    While I agree with the sentiment – my television, my laptop, etc, is not worth killing for. It’s only stuff – I have to disagree when it comes to protecting myself and my family.

    In a TEOTWAWKI situation in particular, their rationale goes out the window for two reasons.

    First, the 4 guys breaking into my house are probably after more than just my laptop. They are after my very life and the lives of my wife and kids. I cannot stand by and let that happen. Not if there is a breathe in me.

    Second, even if they don’t intend to physically harm us (doubtful that’s the case and if it is, they probably didn’t stop to explain that to me) they are stealing the very food that we need to live. So in effect they are killing us but in a much slower method.

    Good post Jarhead. Thought provoking without being provocative.

  • The Duck August 3, 2012, 10:58 am

    Really would be better off with no gun control, gun control kills, nearly every mass shooting has been in a “No Guns” zone, why has there never been a succesful mass shooting at a police station?, Answer: Everybody has a gun.

    When guns are outlawed, some of us will simply become out laws, and even if 70 million give up and trun them in that will leave 10 million plus of well equipped citizens.

    Bad guys will always have guns, as they will steal them from the Police, and Military, look at the some of the near riots at shoe stores over new Nikes, what do you think they will do when they are hungary?

    Blades and Hawks were used a lot at one time, so if no gun I use big blades and hawks (but just as a gun does not make you a gunfighter, knife training should be sought )

  • Ragnar August 3, 2012, 11:27 am

    Obviously, a side arm is the preferred weapon, but if you have them, so probably will the attackers. The biggest advantage of the sidearm in that situation is its ability to intimidate.
    You also underestimate the defensive capability of one determined knife fighter in a limited space. The bat and axe are not good in a hall, the extra fighters are not as much of an advantage in a hall. Motivation is also very important. You are fighting for your family and they are fighting for loot. There is a huge difference between fighting in your house and out in the open, and in your house the advantage goes to you. You will almost certainly lose, at the very least you will be hurt, but unless you panic, it will take a lot longer than you seem to think. That will give Mrs. Jarhead enough time to get away even if you don’t. On the other hand, if they have guns and you do not…

  • TJ Jackson August 3, 2012, 11:49 am

    I have anticipated your scenario and you leave a large hole in the logic sequence. If the government cancels the second amendment and calls for everyone to turn in their weapons, only the seriously foolish would do it. If you use a weapon to defend yourself in a SHTF scenario and win, you will have to make the negative evidence disappear. I believe that the second most important thing to have in this scenario would be a back-hoe or better. The bad guys didn’t tell anyone where they were going to rob and rape (they don’t file a flight plan) and their friends, families and fellow criminals will not know where to go looking for them. If their vehicle is found later, deep in the woods somewhere, burned to a crisp, and there is no sign of them, they will, eventually, disappear from the collective memory. They will represent a great mystery to the archaeologist that stumbles upon their remains at some distant point in the future and this will then create the ultimate win-win situation. Remember, the future belongs to the prepared..!

  • Charles,,,, August 3, 2012, 12:34 pm

    In addition, chemical weapons of the kitchen variety, well bedroom and bath too… ole hair spray and bic lighter trick, be sure to get a good cloud sprayed before touching off the bic, then empty the can on thos suckers…. wasp/flying insect spray that shoots out 20 plus feet, nasty for the eyes and throat, so for all you mad scientists give some of your secret receipes for zombie deterrents….

  • Ray August 3, 2012, 12:54 pm

    Jarhead, My brother bulds flintlocks , from scratch. I make my own powder ,from scratch. The cats been outa the bag ’bout 500 years or so. Pack 5 men in a choke point + flint 4 bore= A MESS. If you realy must, A short sword +shield +spear. 300 greeks got a bunch a boys in a choke point a few years back . Hert ’em BAD.Useing those very things . No s**t , a short sword is a bad A** wepon in CQB>You stick 20 inches of razor 3 inch wide in a mans gut, the fights outa the boy, And they are REALY easy to make outa car spring. Shields are easy made, from many things. Hell a sharp rock on a stick will do the deed. Wepons are easy ,Its the will to fight thats hard. Ray in Ky

  • Tim August 3, 2012, 1:09 pm

    Hey, on *that* note:

    Is this the coolest friggin’ thing you’ve ever heard of, or what?!?

    Shooting .22lr, .38 .44 & 9mm from *any* break-action 12ga. shotgun. Think of the barter value for something like this in post-SHTF, where half the people have *no* firearm, and the other 40% only have grandpa’s old shotgun.

  • lee August 3, 2012, 1:32 pm

    I’ve got stunguns, pepper spray and a baseball bat in my car.

    Even though i live in Texas, you can’t just walk around with the hand on your gun; its not practical and getting it from the car or out of the glovebox sometimes isnt timely; but you can carry a stin gun or pepper spray in your pocket; that should be enough protection for day to day imo.

    if you really are in a situation needing of a weapon that can injure more than two people; i’m betting a gun with six shots wouldnt be of much help. if 3 people are going to jump you, one of them is going to get you.

  • Mall Ninja August 3, 2012, 1:48 pm

    Chuck Norris does not need a gun…

    • Spook45 August 3, 2012, 11:57 pm

      Chuck has a sign on his front porch that looks like a revolver and says”we dont dial 911″

    • lee August 4, 2012, 11:30 am

      he has a director to screem CUT!

    • Jason August 4, 2012, 8:58 pm

      Chuck Norris can walk into your house and arrest you for trespassing.

      Chuck Norris can strangle you with a cordless phone.

      Chuck Norris puts the “laughter” in “manslaughter”.

      Superman owns a pair of Chuck Norris pajamas.

  • JL August 3, 2012, 2:00 pm

    At home my big girl is going to give me a warning, she barks if someone comes on the property. My husband just asked me how long I would take me to load the gun, I haven’t been shooting in awhile. The problem is I have to go and get it. I have metal baseball bats and a steel pipe within easy reach. I would also say I will give you the food (not my hidden food though) .
    Anyone who doesn’t have a violent record should have or know how to shoot. Because criminals have guns, I know of several that do. Gun control doesn’t work.

    • Tim August 3, 2012, 2:40 pm

      If you don’t feel comfortable carrying at home consider one of these:

      You can safely keep a loaded weapon, readily accessible & out of sight, right where you need it.

  • GA August 3, 2012, 2:45 pm

    Not a fan of gun control or regulation. We all know the bad guys will get guns regardless of new legislation. Besides, there are way too many guns out there and it would be a logistical impossibility to collect them. Chicago has some pretty strict gun regs. How are they doing with that?

  • kevin August 3, 2012, 2:53 pm

    that would be a VERY bad idea for onel ike you said IF 3 or 4 guys WHERE to break in almost ANYBODY would be on the losing end of that mess for another unless somebody was a complete fool anybody with 1/2 a brain would at least TRY to hide a shotgun someplace because as far as all around weapon for me personly a good old 12 guage cant be beaten

    • Tim August 3, 2012, 9:52 pm

      And you get yourself some of these adapters for your 12 ga., and you’ll never need to buy another caliber weapon again.

  • Robert August 3, 2012, 4:59 pm

    Do we need more gun control? In a word, no.

    I’m a middle school teacher, so I work in a disarmed victim zone. I still have access to all sorts of weapons. My keys, with a para-cord handle/”key chain” make a nice mace (club), and the fire extinguisher in my room makes a nifty spray to disorient the perp/can to bludgeon the perp tool as well. There’s a spare right outside my door. A hammer works in a pinch too (have one in my desk, because things need hammering, even at school).

    What we need is an end to the victim mentality. Each and every one of us is responsible for our own defense. Each and every one of us also knows it is wrong to harm people for no reason. We, as a society, need to stop allowing criminals to claim victim status. Some people are just bad.

    Only because it’s related to the Batman tragedy:

    “Some men just want to watch the world burn.” Alfred Pennyworth

    What we need is crime control. What we need to do, as a society, is say, “Enough! If you harm people while committing a crime, you go to jail forever.” No parole. No time off, “for good behavior” nonsense. You are done. You raped, maimed, brutalized, tortured, (etc) another human being, you are done.

    On the flip side, we need to actually provide an opportunity for those who might turn to crime because they “have no options.” We need to reprogram them to stop feeling like victims who are owed something besides an opportunity to succeed. Undo LBJ’s “Great Society” which has done nothing except hold whole communities down, and instead of offering a hand-out (welfare/food stamps/housing assistance for nothing) offer a hand-up–require actual work to be performed by those receiving government monies. Train them, teach them a skill. They will develop self-esteem, pride, and a satisfaction that only comes from earning what you have.

    Will we still have crime? YES, but not as much. As stated, some people are just bad. BTW, what I am advocating is similar to the work programs from the Great Depression. Most people wouldn’t have taken charity beyond food to survive, they wanted to work for what they got.

    In the mean time, “allowing” citizens to carry a firearm will go a long way to preventing tragedies. How many of the school shooters would have come to school knowing that their teachers were going to shoot back? Especially if the History teacher at the end of the hall is a damned good shot?

  • Nantan Lupan August 3, 2012, 5:26 pm

    Got some Police Nightsticks on sale from a mail order store a few years ago. We also keep 3-4 cases of empty beer bottles for just such an occasion, which could be filled with gas/nails/dish soap real quick.
    We don’t own any “assualt weapons” per se, just a Mossberg 835, a Marlin 30-30 and a Ruger 10-22, any of which will get me a M-4 carbine, if need be.

  • Michael August 3, 2012, 6:12 pm

    When WWII broke out one of the first things both my grandfathers (they didn’t know each other) did was bury drums of gasoline behind their barns.

    In this situation I’d probably do something similar, having a BOB and some food stashed somewhere safe so I could book out of the house and not die of exposure or starve right away.

    I live by my self (with one of my nieces occasionally spending the night) and our policy is: if something catches on fire or someone breaks into the house: Run The Fuck Away. If this scenario happened to me I’d RTFA. Out the back door or out a window, we’ve practiced it. Run.

    I’d probably also have a few air horns stashed around the property and I’m betting when I started blasting them off whoever was in the house wouldn’t want to wait around to see if the whole neighborhood was going to show up. Hopefully, we’d have some sort of neighborhood defense worked out, but even if we didn’t I’m betting a whole bunch of noise and maybe a few arrows fired though windows would convince them that they shouldn’t stick around.

    • Michael August 3, 2012, 6:18 pm

      Chlorine gas (Ammonia and Chlorine bleach) the house and run like hell!

      Or run like hell and then throw a gas bomb through a window.

    • irishdutchuncle August 3, 2012, 10:43 pm

      RTFA works good, as long as there are no bad guys lying in wait, along your escape path. got to make it to your cache, before you can make use of it.

      • Michael August 5, 2012, 12:42 am

        I’d much rather take my chances on one guy out in the open, than several in a confined space. I could probably run right passed one guy out in the open, but in a fight in a confined space I’m probably a dead man. It would probably be different for different people.

        • irishdutchuncle August 5, 2012, 9:32 am

          I was worried more for your niece. I agree, in general with the the principle of running away. (living to fight another day)
          When I finally get my own place, (hopefully before it’s my cemetery plot) i will definitely include a copy of the deed in my “INCH” bag. (in case I can return with “overwhelming force” to eventually re claim it)

          • Michael August 5, 2012, 4:22 pm

            Ah, good point. My niece is a pretty speedy 13 year old. We’re both setup better to flee than fight.

          • Jason August 9, 2012, 12:05 am

            Is this conversation really happening? Instilling paranoia in young kids is a very poor idea because it will lead to many adult anxieties, guaranteed. Kids need to know that they are safe & cared for, not to be indoctrinated into extremely low probability events.

            BTW, while you are mixing bleach & ammonia to get Nitrogen Trichloride (poison) be sure you don’t add too much ammonia because you’ll get Hydrazine (explosive rocket fuel) & you will take you & your niece off of the planet before you can think of throwing it into the house.

            Stop watching CSI or whatever nonsense that causes these thoughts – to think a bunch of zombies or whatever are going to overrun your place is just plain idiotic besides, you will never be prepared. A very close friend was a hardened, battle veteran of MANY missions in Vietnam & had his command posts overrun 3 times by heavily armed & trained NVA’s & he said there is no training for it – you either do or die.

            Sorry, we will never be close to any event happening like that except in one’s imagination.

            Sometimes I fear for our species ….

          • irishdutchuncle August 9, 2012, 8:57 am


            Michael can maybe instill a little healthy awareness, without causing the child to become paranoid. depending on where they live, home invasions may be a daily occurrence. although the phoebophiles get most of the attention, young women and girls get molested, or raped, as well. should she be unwary about strangers, just because the probability is low?

            people lose their homes to marauders in other third world countries all the time. do you honestly believe it won’t become that way here? a low propability today, only reflects on today.

          • Jason August 9, 2012, 7:25 pm

            Do I honestly believe it won’t become that way here? Yes, 100% correct – it’ll never happen here & stand by what I wrote. I’d bet that far, far less than 1% of homes in all 3rd world countries get taken by marauders so, extrapolating that to happening to you personally here in a 1st world country is virtually impossible.

            Exception being if you lived in one of the worst ghetto’s here in the states, then you would not be reading this blog because either your computer is gone or your too busy making Nitrogen Trichloride prepping for the next attack.

            It’s funny how some people live in deeply imbedded fantasies that they try to make it reality that they miss what’s really going on in life. Being prepared is one thing but to let the imagination run amuck to the point of acting it out is psychosis.

            psy·cho·sis – Noun:
            A severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.

          • Jason August 10, 2012, 11:11 am


            A little awareness, yes very, very little & age appropriate. Kids want to be safe & happy not have it disrupted by thoughts of terror entering their home.

            The parent or adult is the leader & children will naturally follow in times that require immediate action. It is unnecessary & foolish to assume they need every detail of an escape plan. Instilling fear in a child that adults can barely handle is idiotic to say the least.

            Do I think home invasions will happen here in any widespread form? That is a hysterical thought & no it will never, ever happen, hence my comment. This country may be screwed up but to think that less than 1/10th of 1% of the population is going to hold us at bay & take over with impunity is just a tad bit over the top.

      • Jason August 10, 2012, 9:39 pm

        Sorry for the repeat! The first comment did not load up for a day (see dates) so I commented again then both materialize!

  • T.R. August 3, 2012, 9:59 pm

    Fear the government that fears your guns ……………that is an absolute fact . Fascism lies at the end of the far right , and communism at the end of the far left , neither wants any threat to their authority . We are in the middle , buy now , buy as much as you can reasonably afford to do so . A pawn shop 22 revolver is still better than a kitchen knife . Hide , bury , cache . Much is written on how to beat ground penetrating radar , metal detectors , asshole cops , etc .
    Personal opinion , if the economy collapsed , etc.etc. , they would be hard pressed to get a fraction of what is out there if people resisted , they just dont have the manpower to be successful other than in isolated areas . Gang members , drug cartel members , criminals in general already outgun the cops day to day . I also dont think the discharged veterans ( that have good training ) are going to just hand over their guns after what they have been through and treated by gooberment after they got out . I see a lot of dead cops and national guardsmen ……………just an opinion , the thing about today is that information travels extremely fast and is almost impossible to contain once something happens . They start confiscating in one city , the rest of the country will know within hours .

    • 3rdMan August 4, 2012, 2:07 pm

      Fascism and Communism are both on the left side of the political spectrum. The far right believe in no government at all which can be dangerous in itself.

      • T.R. August 4, 2012, 8:47 pm

        I could go for libertarianism .

        • 3rdMan August 4, 2012, 9:43 pm

          I fall under Conservative myself!

          • irishdutchuncle August 6, 2012, 12:29 pm

            “Conservatives” are a british political party. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what’s for dinner. i favor the “Republic”, i guess that makes me a true “republican”.

          • T.R. August 6, 2012, 7:27 pm

            If I had my way the country would break up…….that makes me a Confederate I’m proud to say .
            Stars & Bars !

          • irishdutchuncle August 7, 2012, 8:46 am

            T.R. : under the original articles of confederation, they all agreed that the union was indissoluble.

          • T.R. August 7, 2012, 7:26 pm

            I believe that was amended later that each state could become sovereign if they wished to be .

    • 3rdMan August 4, 2012, 2:14 pm

  • Crtr August 3, 2012, 10:31 pm

    Great post.

    My nit to pick with these sorts of questions goes a little something like this:

    We always like to talk about the “what ifs” in a very “in-the-moment” sort of a way. The four guys breaking into your home is the perfect example. But actual human behavior, even in the midst of a society in collapse, turns out to be a lot more complicated than that. And in those complications, who has access to firearms on an individual or household basis might not be nearly as important as one might think.

    As Americans we like to imagine ourselves as individuals. In fact, we value our individualism so highly that we actually assume that it is the natural order of things. But it’s not.

    Human beings, especially in situations where social order begins to come apart at the seams, tend to band together in groups for mutual self-interest. We might call them clans, gangs, or we might even call them militias. This is arguably a more central part of human nature than individualism. Individualism is a fairly recent invention, and it is one that has been artificially propped up by a civilization of laws, wage labor, and a cash economy. All of these things, I’ll point out, are artificial.

    Take them away, and our individualism goes with it. See how quickly we revert back to clan, tribe, cartel, whatever we want to call it.

    Look at Iraq, for example. Here is a society that was thrown into social anarchy following the United States invasion. For many years, and arguably still today, it is a country that is only a few short steps from civil war. Its population, though well armed — with a gun culture comparable to the US’s, at least in terms of firearms per household — probably does not see the physical ownership of a gun as the deciding factor in their personal safety.

    The deciding factor is not going to be whether an Iraqi householder owns a gun. The deciding factor is going to be: where is he located? Who are his allies? And who does he serve?

    The point here is that, unless we are talking about literally the first 72 hours after TSHTF, the four guys breaking into your house are probably not just some random looters who, after being shot at, will run away and never come back. In fact, even if you kill every single one of them, it is highly unlikely that you won’t be hearing from their brothers, and that regardless of whether or not the original men were armed, the ones looking for them certainly will be.

    That’s the thing preppers have really got to learn to chew on, I think: not when or how to bug-out, but who your allies will be and what can you offer them that boosts their chances of survival as well as yours.

    • watchdog August 4, 2012, 2:20 am

      Excellent point!

      • izzy August 9, 2012, 7:43 pm

        VERY good point – I know a lot of refugees who had to flee for precisely this reason (one bad guy pissed off for no reason, with a large network of friends/associates – who usually did NOT run away, since they were usually the mayor or whatever… Crimes of desperation are very different.

    • Jason August 12, 2012, 11:35 am

      I agree with you that humans are social creatures & tend to move towards each other or rally in a more common bond. However, we have been individual/independent since the beginning of recorded history otherwise, we’d have far few problems in the world.

      The point that I always like to refer to is the extreme difficulty it takes to kill another human. Many talk tough, beat their chests & talk about guns & what they’d do if some mother effer tried to break in, like the idiot above with his chlorine gas bomb.

      It takes a true sociopathic behavior to be able to complete the act unless of course, it is a true life & death situation then, the residual effect would be haunting. Well over 99.5% of the people have never taken a life & it is far different than talking SHTF. My guess is that same percentage WILL choose flight over fight because it is more natural.

    • Jeslyn June 23, 2016, 9:51 pm

      Och sÃ¥ har mÃnai¤sknn mage att kalla rovdjuren i världen odjur samt hata dessa som gör det de har gjort i tusentals Ã¥r medan människan bara blir vidrigare och vidrigare. Finns ingen värre best än människan tyvärr även om hon anser sig sitta över allt och alla pÃ¥ denna jord

  • KC August 4, 2012, 12:31 am

    In the scenario specified, there are several options to the individual that must by necessity defend his/her home against a armed home invasion. If firearms were not available in the scenario specified, the defender could with the proper prior preparation could successfully defend with fatal results to the opponent without resorting to the use of a chemical explosive, in either a firearm or the use of a improvised device. As Ray in KY has clearly stated that archaic weaponry is easily available in combat grade strength in addition to various archaic projection weapons for use in a Close Quarters Battle environment. Since the scenario has stated that this has been a gradual decent into privation and poverty, the defender has had ample time and warning to prepare the home for active/passive defense. Since the common time for a armed home invasion is during limited visibility/hours of darkness, the danger of employing active measures in the main avenues of approach would be of low risk, due to the fact that the inhabitants of the home would be at rest and not moving at the time of the invasion. With active drills, the inhabitants would become conditioned to the presence of the active measures employed in the main avenues of approach., and thus avoid inadvertently activating the defense measure. In other words, the defender would employ several large game fatal traps near the entrances/exits to the home. Additionally several methods of employing caltrops (sharp objects) on the ledges of windows, especially incapacitating when concurrently employed with excrement (not necessarily human based), add this with the use of chain link fencing on the inside of the window frame as to deter the use of improvised petrol incendiary devices (as the glass container would shatter upon impact with the chain link, thus severely limiting the incendiary effect of the formerly concentrated device, which can be extinguished by smothering with fire resistant blankets. When countering the effect of improvised chemical warfare in a home invasion scenario is just a simple matter of using impregnated charcoal between two layers of a standard N95 commercial respirator, along with a pair of sealed goggles to be worn either on the head or around the neck as appropriate.

    This being said I will chime in on the potential effect of future weapons controls being potentially enacted by any level of governmental authority in the nation state known currently by the world at large as the United States of America: To those who promote the further control of weapons by so-called lawful measures, enacted by your elected representatives, you are making the biggest mistake in the history of the human species. Weapons Controls have never worked on any formerly armed population to the extent that currently exists in the United States of America as of this writing. If those elected and appointed representatives feel that they can ignore the most basic of all human rights and enact said control measures, they the officials will be directly involved in bringing the worst civil war in human history. Most firearms owners are deeply concerned with their rights as outlined in the Constitution of the United States of America as codified in 1791 as has held applicable to the present day. This invitation to blatant violent conflict is most despicable by those who advocate such, for they will have sold their divinely endowed birthrights to those who care not for human life, but only for the extenuation of their personal power as exercised through the subterfuge of political process. So in the bottom line to all those who advocate any sort of control upon weapons either presently enacted such as the National Firearms Act of 1934 (Title 18, Section 922 USC) or the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Pub.L. 90-618, 82 Stat. 1213 Title 44 USC to the National Firearms Act of 1934 Ammended 22 October 1968) or to any future control legislation: You Will Lose! It’s that simple, you cannot without short of an extinction level event assisting you in your endeavors, my ancestors may have bent to your will in a temporary moment of weakness, such as the so-called “Great Depression” or the “perceived” public danger of the 1960’s, however these capitulations of the past are a temporary measure which in time and with the collective wisdom of an armed constituency will be overturned, lawfully either by repeal legislation or by judicial decree. If those reading this short comment agree with the facts and opinions posted here, I can only recommend that you the reader stop supporting the Cabal of corrupt Washington/Northern Virginia based Jackals of big business (read Remington, Winchester, Sturm-Ruger, Smith and Wesson, Kimber and other domestic manufacturers) who only wish to market their products without the healthy and innovative competition that comes with active importation of current manufactured foreign firearms. Of course I’m referring to Wayne La Pierre and his lackeys at the National Rifle Association. If you want to make a true impact not only the failure of future control legislation but a complete and utter repeal of those heinous laws currently on the books, join and contribute to organizations who have your best interests at the heart of their respective discourse. Organizations such as the Gun Owners of America, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and the Second Amendment Foundation. Such civil liberty champions as Aaron Zelman, Alan Gottleb and David Kopel feel the same way and have dedicated their lives towards these goals, of perpetual firearm ownership by the inhabitants of the United States of America.

    In closing I’m compelled to quote one of the greatest justifications for private weapons ownership ever written: “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” -Jesus Ben-David (Better Known to all as Christ Jesus of Nazareth; The Gospel According to Luke, Holy Bible, King James Version- (According to Biblical Scholars, a Roman Short Sword as described in the above text, was the ancient equivalent to today’s so-called “Assault-Weapon” since a sword’s primary function was not for the harvesting of game or livestock, but for the rapid dispatch of human beings, and private ownership of said weapon by persons who were not in the direct employment of the Roman or Jewish governments of Biblical Palestine/Israel, was punishable by death.)

    • Ray August 4, 2012, 2:05 am

      My point was, that wepon control is useless. From the time humans learned that broken rock is sharp, till now ,people have made/used things to kill others. Its what we’r best at. The dificult thing is ,breaking the tabboo ,killing . I do hope that my child laughs at my long bow,my flintlock, my stone knife& arrow heads. I pray that she grow to belive that the old mans preps were silly. I pray she never know the part of me that knows what punji pits are.That she never learns to make poison arrows. That she never knows how Easy it is to kill. Our safe little world is a blessing, best pray it holds. For if not our children will wade rivers of blood and it will be our fault. Ray in Ky

      • MLD August 6, 2012, 9:44 pm

        If you want to live in a society that does not allow its citizens to own a firearm, move to Mexico. Such a peaceful, nonviolent society; except for all the murders.

  • Angry Mike August 4, 2012, 1:59 am


    As is typical I feel you are spot on. We can all look back at footage of hurricane Katrina as a reference of how things will play out. Even the Cops abandoned their posts to protect their families. It got THAT bad. Some people ran (looting) for TV’s while most ran for food and water. Feel free to revert back to my post on Urban Survival circa 2008?

    I do believe there should be some gun control, primarily on those unable to control themselves…These would be career criminals and mentally ill people who can not or are not able to observe the difference between a threat and a delusion. Lets leave religion, race, creed or lack of out of this and base this on mentality and moral ability.

    A simple breakdown: Couch potatoes will want a better TV. Those with some common sense will opt for food and water. If a man has hungry and thirsty children, even me, will I not attempt to do what ever I can to feed them??? Granny or any one with a shotgun is a huge deterent. And more often than not a problem (hello, my name is heavily armed and well skilled, what would you like your Uelogy to say?) solver without firing a shot.

    However Jarhead, you have brought up another point and left machismo aside and checked ego at the door. The way it should be. Out numbered 4 to 1, even if you are armed, you stand a chance of being over run and over powered and ultimately dead. Fleeing, especially with a wife and children is a much better option than trying to hold ground but may not be plausible.

    A big chance of being over run if your opponent(s) knows and has calculated the odds. This is where a second shooter and “layer” of security comes in. Security needs to be in layers. Fences, barking dogs, alarms, planning, firearms (with formal training), martial arts, etc. Its planning and prepping folks. Especially for the most unlikely scenario. Dream up every worst case scenario and multiply it times 1000 and you might be ready for it…

  • FLOWERMAN August 5, 2012, 1:06 pm

    Many samhaims and sabbats have passed since last i logged on to iluminate you gun owners (worshipers of the steel penis that shoots lead not seed) on the TAO OF THE CUCUMBER. The Tao (way) of the cucumber is the way of peace, for a cucumber bears good seeds…not seeds of lead.

    WE MUST BAN GUNS! All of them!

    But there will still be violence unless we also ban the consumption of meat. Meat leads to constipation and overstimulation of the wand of light (penis). This leads men to do barbaric acts in their search for sexual partners and clean restrooms.

    But i digress. I do have a story of what actually happened when armed invaders attempted to sack our compound recently.

    It was a warm spring evening in our double-wide in the American Redoubt. I, FlowerMan was in my favorite hemp-woven chair enjoying a cold zucchini soda when FlowerWoman came in to say that four camoflauged men with their steel penises (M1A’s in this case) were coming through the cucumber patch using the bounding-overwatch method.

    Knowing this was a “man’s” job, I bade FlowerWoman to summon the neighbors while I went out to greet them….NAKED. Yes, in the full glory of my nakedness i pranced fawnlike out to the cucumber patch tossing glitter into the air and singing “Caravan of Love.” But first i lit a few bales of hemp on fire so the smoke would drift their direction.

    As i neared them, one said “We don’t allow no fruits here in the American Redoubt.”

    Picking a few cucumber blossoms i said, “That is most astute of you, for the cucumber is, indeed, a fruit. Most think it is a vegetable.”

    I then sprinkled them with glitter and placed the cucmber blossoms in the muzzles of their M1A’s, while radiating love and harmony to them.

    They stood there awestruck, breathing in the savory aroma of burning hemp. I don’t believe these men had ever had such tenderness projected on them.

    Meanwhile, Flowerwoman approached with the other villagers behind her. Naked. The men were gloriously naked and and sweaty and bearded. The women were pretty much indistinquishable from the men, but for the fact that they were all holding enormous cucumbers in their outstretched hands.

    They began the chant that we use to welcome all newcomers. A chant that is an invitation to share in our nudist lifestyle AND our favorite produce— “GET NAKED AND TAKE OUR CUCUMBERS!”

    Soon the invaders were encircled by a wall of loving flesh, glistening cucumbers, and hemp-smoke. As has happened in similar situations, the invaders broke down and began to sob. From JOY, of course.

    Very soon, guns and constipation were the last things on their mind.



    OF LOVE…

    • D'ja'c August 5, 2012, 4:53 pm

      What????? JW,R Get off the line!

    • Ranger Man August 6, 2012, 8:47 am

      Missed you, Flowerman.

      • Jason August 9, 2012, 12:10 am

        Now that was funny Ranger!

  • BillyB August 6, 2012, 10:08 pm

    Well, what if Jarhead’s scenario is the same, except that some people KEEP their guns?

    Government response might look something like this plan of action PROPOSED by a Colonel at Fort Leavenworth:

    • irishdutchuncle August 7, 2012, 11:27 am

      it’s very interesting that in the latest “domestic terrorist” event, the perpetrator was portrayed as being a white supremacist. (on the SPLC list, and everything…)

      • BillyB August 8, 2012, 11:00 pm

        It’s also very interesting how many people refer to Neo-Nazi’s in America as “Far Right”; whereas, if they’re actually Nazi’s, then they’re far LEFT.

        But, I don’t know that the white supremacists in America are devout socialists as well; I think maybe they just associate with Hitler’s racial policies. I could be wrong about that, but racism is across the political spectrum and is only tied to certain specific political ideologies like Nazism, not necessarily all socialists, and certainly not tied to the political right in this country (in fact, historically quite the opposite).

        The author who wrote the paper I linked to includes a long string of false presumptions based on lies from the Statist media. That Colonel is a perfect demonstration of Goebbels’ premise that “if you tell a big enough lie, and repeat it often enough; then people will come to believe it.” I’m pretty sure that that’s the motto of the modern State Media.

        • Jason August 9, 2012, 12:16 am

          You quoted – “if you tell a big enough lie, and repeat it often enough; then people will come to believe it.”

          So absurd & yet so true. The only thing I’d add is communicating the lie with conviction, which I’m sure they did/do.

          However, I do believe racism is first associated with personal arrogance.

        • irishdutchuncle August 9, 2012, 9:01 am

          from things i’ve heard, their fellow travellers at the SPLC have the same motto.

  • Gary Wolf August 11, 2012, 12:12 am

    I Shoot, my girls shoot, It’s silly to bring a stick to a gun fight.
    Who said any thing about a fight? I don’t want to risk a shoot out old west style. but i’ll make sure my family is safe…

  • Gary Wolf August 12, 2012, 4:05 pm

    Gun control like any other law just keep honest people honest . people are always going to have guns. Just take a look at the countries that have strict laws. it just tells the criminals that the honest folks there going to rob are unarmed.


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