Guy, a SHTFblog SHTF homie, wrote a comment on one of my AR-15 posts a while back, and I’ve been holding it in moderation to unleash it now. Sometimes I’ll do this, hold sweet TEOTWAWKI comments, because the shiznit is so sweet it warrants direct attention by the masses. In today’s case Guy’s thoughts seemed unique and well written enough to warrant attention here. He writes (Ranger Man comments in orange).
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My handgun of choice isn’t a handgun at all, its a M-4 Carbine. A contradictory statement, but given that the overall length of a civilian legal M4 carbine is about 32″ with the stock collapsed, it could be concealed under a long coat. Just know that this is illegal in most states, and quite unnecessary – unless it’s TEOTWAWKI.
I would like to spin on a Malone quote from “The Untouchables” (1987):
Guy: Isn’t that just like a cowboy? Brings a pistol to a rifle fight.
Ranger Man adds the saying: A pistol is what you use to fight your way to a rifle.
If you’re close enough to your enemy to use a handgun, you’re waaaay too close! Whenever you have the need to deploy your weapon, your first reaction should be to put distance between you and your enemy and to put yourself in a defendable position where your enemy must expose themselves to attack you. Unlike standard military doctrine, your objective is not a military target, it’s to survive! No battle is worth dying for or even getting injured. If you have an opportunity to leave, do so, rather than engage an armed attacker. If you get seriously injured and there is no medical services available in a SHTF situation, you will die, and whatever thing or person you wanted to protect is lost anyway. Better to live and fight another day. Always engage your enemy from a position that gives a decisive advantage over your enemy.
“Nothing in this world is worth dying for, but some things are worth killing for.”
WTSHTF, concealed weapons are useless. You want everyone to know that you’re armed and that should give them a second thought. A visible weapon is a strong deterent.
Ranger Man questions the above statement. There are many circumstances when you DON’T want someone to know you’re armed. The element of surprise is often critical to the mission. Further, walking around with an M4 strapped over your torso could mean someone else is going to spot you, say, “I’d like to have that” and plug you from a distance. Would it not be better (under certain circumstances) to dress in grubby clothes, look deranged, and pack a .44 mag in a shoulder holster?
As quickly that you can bring a holstered handgun to bear, you can do the same with a rife on a sling. If you’re in a gun fight you’re not going to have time to reload a revolver while on the move, and you need a magazine with enough rounds so that you can lay down suppressive fire while you seek a defensive position or escape. You’re going to need the range and targeting accuracy of a rifle in any gun fight that you hope to achieve victory.
In addition, what if your enemy is wearing body armor (plausable)? Most handguns will not penetrate body armor. However most rifles will penetrate body armor, except if your enemy has rifle plates (improbable).
– Ranger Man (with the help of Guy)
12 comments
When I took Basic at Ft Dix in 1970, they taught us “instinctive” shooting with Red Ryder BB guns with the sights filed off. Shot at metal targets at 5 yards.
With all the sighting options available today learning how to put rounds on target quickly is still a good idea.
Get a lever action BB gun, file the sights off and shoot at a tennis ball in the grass. Of course use some common sense and have a safe field of fire. Then go shoot regulation skeet from a low ready position with a 410 or 28 ga.
Hitting the other guy first is far more important than MOA accuracy with $1000 sights in a gunfight.
I agree with Rangerman I think it really depends where you are going and what the current environment is like. If everything is in the beginning stages of SHTF hopefully you are prepped enough not to need to go out. After that it depends where you are.
Hungarian AMD-64 AK style rifle with side folding stock, 7.62x39mm caliber
fits what I call the ranch gun / carbine niche for me…
can be fired like a pistol.
Don’t get me wrong I like the colt,but give the choice . I’ll take the AMD every time. Dragon
An item to think about: mention was made of the opposition wearing body armor, and consequently, the need for a rifle as oppossed to a pistol. However, assuming one has a decent pistol in hand (.45, .357, maybe even a 9mm)and is able to hit the opposition, even on the body armor, would not the opponent be taken off their feet or at least knocked seriously off balance, at least for a moment, allowing you to deliver a much better, perhaps even fatal shot? All that energy has to go somewhere, even if the round does not penetrate. Just a thought. Greg
While I fully agree that a “handgun is what you use to fight your way to the rifle that you should not have set down in the first place.” I have some concerns with the M4/AR15/M16 platform as your primary weapon system when SHTF. Admittedly I have no problem with it as a secondary weapon/ranch gun, except the finicky cleanliness and lubrication issues. However, the direct gas system was designed for a technologically advanced military with an outstanding logistics train. Please reference recent issues of Small Arms Review for a torture test utilizing an M4 versus one of the gas piston offerings, also in 5.56. I think the gas piston was the POF and not the HK 416 (I think 416) upper on an AR lower, though results would be similiar. The M4 failed a lot faster and had extreme temperature differences which leads to parts failure and a decided lack of longevity.
In addition, please remember that suppressive fire doesn’t (Murphy’s rules on combat). This is especially true if you don’t have 9+ buddies with automatic weapons as your volume of fire will be somewhat less. Not to mention that suppressive fire eats through ammo real quick.
What I’m saying is train, train, train, train to reach cover and return effective fire. Look at your environment before deciding which weapon system to standardize on and look at things like gas piston versus direct gas systems.
For people in the west the .223 just does not have the legs for the ranges one is likely to run into. Also, more things are cover from a .223.
You’re absolutly correct. Long barrel wins out over short barrel every time; and the larger caliber the long barrel, the better. As for training. I would guess that is where my 4 plus decades with the Army come in handy. Greg
Gregg Said:
” I have some concerns with the M4/AR15/M16 platform as your primary weapon system when SHTF.”
I was refering to M4 Carbine in a general term to refer to a semi-automatic carbine rifle using .223 ammunition. The HK416 or another piston carbine rifle would be perferred over a gas fired rifle. Although a direct gas weapons are usually lighter.
Greg Said:
“For people in the west the .223 just does not have the legs for the ranges one is likely to run into. Also, more things are cover from a .223.”
The advantage is that the .223 packs much further range and acurrancy over a handgun. Every weapon has its own advantages and disavantages. I think if your heading in town to barter for goods, your better off with a carbine weapon then either a handgun or a heavier caliber, long rifle. Heavy rifles take slightly more time to bring to target. This can be significant when you need to expose yourself in order to return fire.
If your looking to engage in long distance, (ie sniper), it would make more sense to go with a heavy caliber long rifle. This would be idea where you protecting your ranch/homestead for invaders, and you have a stockpile of heavy ammo that you don’t need to carry around and if you have the opportunity to engage a target at very long range.
Ranger Man said:
“There are many circumstances when you DON’T want someone to know you’re armed. The element of surprise is often critical to the mission. Further, walking around with an M4 strapped over your torso could mean someone else is going to spot you, say, “I’d like to have that” and plug you from a distance. ”
If you not carrying anything, your probably better off going unarmed. In
your proposed situation, its likely that a sniper will take you out whether your visibly armed or not.
Consider, that in most situations where your going to expose yourself off your property, your likely to be carrying something of interest: Backpack, bag, cart, etc. That makes you an instant target. You might as well flaunt firepower than appear as a helpless soul with a bag\cart full of supplies. Hypothetically, if your coming into a predators area, he spots you carrying anything, he’s likely to shoot first from a distance, regardless if you appeared armed or not: “Here comes another Joe. I wonder what he got in that backpack. I’ll just take him out from a distance.” In situations where you run into attackers armed with knives, handguns, you have them outgunned. Although, your best option would be to sacifice your possessions (minus gun and ammo). Its likely that if you abandon your valuables the attackers will not pursue you. One option would be to drop your valuables and run to a positon where you can engage the enemy without imperilment. This tactic should only be used if your valuables are irreplacable. There are always risks.
Greg Said:
“opposition, even on the body armor, would not the opponent be taken off their feet or at least knocked seriously off balance, at least for a moment, allowing you to deliver a much better, perhaps even fatal shot?”
Perhaps, but consider the situation where you hit an attacker once, but you aren’t able to take another shot. For instance you need to move out of the area fast, because there are other threats, or you need to walk\run past the man you just shot because he was in the way of your exit path. The attacker you shot might be down for 30 secs, or ten minutes, but has an opportunity to re-enage. Murphy’s law may come into play.
Rushman said:
“If everything is in the beginning stages of SHTF hopefully you are prepped enough not to need to go out. After that it depends where you are.”
This of course is the best option. Let the wild west shoot it out among themselves. Be prepared to isolate yourself from the chaos for at least six months (a year or two would ideal).
A pistol is essential. Look at FerFals blog. People can be starving and crime thru the roof with some semblance of law and order in place. SHTF can level off at SHTF and not go to a TEOTWAWKI. Think Argentina 2001-2002.
That means no tac slung ar/ m4/ ak walking around town. A gunfight would be with a pistol if out of the house or a shotgun in the house. Doubtful reloads will be needed for either situation.
The pistol is a BACKUP TO THE LONG GUN in a full on TEOTWAWKI situation. Some social situations exist where taking an M4 is not an option and the pistol fits that nitche.
Greg you watch to much TV, the hit will not take you off your feet. Many police officers have quickly returned fire killing their attackers after being hit in their soft body armor. Shot me in my soft body armor and I will kill you in the extra time you have given me. As for the guy who believes in suppression fire. Suppression fire is only ok if its accurate, but to fire wildly only in an attempt to keep someone’s head will get you killed by a trained attacker. With that said suppression fire has its place. Example: Your buddy is down. Suppression/Cover fire is placed on target, while someone rescuses him. This is a good use of suppression/cover fire. There are many other uses for suppression fire but thats another whole topic in itself. The bottom line is any ammunition that does not hit its target is wasted especially during TEOTWAWKI. Keep your heads down and good luck!
Gosh! pistol-rifle-pistol-rifle- on and on. I just keep my good ol’ M1 Carbine and lots o’ammo handy. Hell, the thing’s battle tested, meant to replace a handgun with better power, accuracy and range, and I only need it to get outta Dodge and out to the Forest Redoubt where I keep the BIG stuff! Seriously, a M1 is light, user friendly, enemy unfriendly, and you should have plenty of ammo and spare parts for ANY weapon you depend on.
Just another 2 cents !kepp yer powder dry!
By far… the best choice for AR-15 platform rifles is Sun Devil Mfg. They CNC machine both the upper and lower receiver from solid billet aluminum. The dimension consistency is amazing. Best fit and finish in the industry! Alot of people think they only build and sell receivers but they sell complete rifles as well.
I have to side with Rangerman here. I know we’re all “armchair snipers” here, but realistically, how many people can actually shoot well enough to actually HIT anything out past an AR’s intended range (<500yds)?
Under stressful situations?
In any given weather conditions?
Any time of day?
At a moving tareget?
Answer: VERY few! If you have an AR and are a decent marksman (hitting a paper plate) at 300yds, You WILL be feared!
A 55gr missle through your skull from an AR or any other 5.56 rifle, will scramble your brains efficiently enough that you won't even know what hit you. A center mass shot will be just as effective. Why?…
"Bob" (Who shoots on a regular basis) is walking, going from point A to point B. "Mike" takes a 350 yard shot with his (choose favorite caliber) at "Bob" and misses because "Mike" is on adrenaline and is trying to hit a moving target.
"Bob" now takes aim at "Mike" (who has not yet moved, and is now trying to re-aquire his target) and shoots him in the liver/gut/chest because he can find his target faster with the AR's sights instead of a scope. A 55gr fmj tears through "Mike", turning his insides to cheese as the 5.56 round tumbles. "Mike" now, realizing he has been shot, shats upon himself and screams and cries like a little girl. He does not return fire as he is now realizing his inevitable demise.
"Bob" gets away, shaken, soiled pants, but unharmed.
This is the most likely scenario in P-SHTF.