Remember my post on No Bull’s Guide to Looting? You don’t!? Well go read it, because I’m about to build off it on this post, build off it and give away one of … THESE!
What is it? Why it’s a gas and oil siphon pump – duh!
Sexy, huh? It also doubles as an air pump in case you need to blow up post-apocalyptic beach balls for toxic seawater fun. You can win one – today! Well, one week from today to be more precise. This is the deal, we have a new advertiser – H&J Survival Company’s Urban Survival Gear Store. They want to give a gas siphon pump away. You want to win it, don’t you? (nod yes) Did you click on their store link? I did. Watch, I’ll do it again – click!
There – just got back from their store.
What’d you think of their Essential Lock Picker Set? Sketchy? Should a preparedness based company even be selling these products? Is it … ethical? These are the questions you can answer in the comments section, and by doing so, enter to win the gas siphon pump (random commenter selected one week from today – only one comment per person).
But let’s consider ethics for a moment before you zip down to the comments section hoping to win big. What IS ethics? Dictionary.com states:
- a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.
- the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
- moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.
- that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.
*YAWN*
I like – “ethics is what you do when no one else is looking.” Meaning, to me, it’s your inner value system. Number 4 in the above has value for purposes of this post, however – specifically, the motives and ends of such actions. If you’re using a gas siphon pump to move gas from YOUR car to YOUR lawn mower, there is no ethical debate to be had. If a fast spreading plague is hitting the city and you use a gas siphon pump to steal gas from a stranger in order to get out of dodge in your Dodge, there’s an ethical debate to be had.
If you use a lock picking set get into YOUR shed because you lost the key to the lock, there’s no ethical issue to be discussed. If you use a lock picking set in a SHTF situation to get into someone else’s shed without their knowing, there’s an ethical issue to be discussed.
But what of Urban Survival Gear Store marketing these products? Are most people buying a gas siphon pump for preparedness purposes buying it so they can transfer gas from their car to their mower are are they thinking it’d be helpful to move gas from someone else’s car to theirs? Are preppers that are interested in lock picking sets buying them just so they can get into their own house if they lost their keys?
Hmmm … what do you think? Comment below and have a chance to win the gas siphon pump, which I’m SURE you’ll use ONLY for ethical purposes ….
– Ranger Man
56 comments
Very interesting discussion, Ranger Man. Glad you brought it up. I don’t see much along these lines out in the blogosphere.
Tools like lock pick sets, siphon devices, and even weapons are inanimate. They cannot be inherently good or bad. They are simply tools and it is how the owner chooses to use them that determines ethics.
So is it unethical for a prepping site to sell those items? I don’t think so as long as there are ethical uses for them.
The question of ethics become more murky when you consider the situation. I believe there are no situation ethics and that there are absolutes, but consider this: taking items from people who had intended harm for you. Say you are defending your property in a grid down situation. You do it successfully. Is it then ethical to take the food of those who attacked you and now no longer have need of it (eg the died trying to harm you).
This was explicitly considered in the Lights Out book.
Joe
Interesting topic, to be sure.
There’s a whole lot of “depends” going on in the whole subject – enough to fill an adult bladder control aisle.
Personally, I figure that, post-SHTF, it’s open for the taking if the following conditions are sufficiently met:
1) it is not under anyone’s current and known possession
2) it belonged to a corporation that is no longer considered viable or operating, or to an individual/group who is dead, or to an individual/group who is physically removed from the area far enough away that they themselves would be unable to use it.
If time is of the essence, the situation is dire, and you’re not sure of ownership, then be fully prepared and able to compensate the owner, and to return/replace the property in equal or better shape if you guess wrong.
If someone attacks you and he/she/they get killed in the process, whatever they have on their person(s) or in their vehicle(s) is yours to take. However, whatever their spouse(s) and/or kids have in their possession is not yours to take.
Otherwise, if you take something from someone who has active and clear ownership of a given item, no matter the reason? You must always give something equal or better to that same person.
lol @ depends comment
That’s a great set of criteria, Odd Questioner. Well said.
Nothing wrong with expanding your options in emergencies. And is it ‘looting’ if you leave a note ? :^)
Well, that would depend on what the note says…
If no one’s around, the door’s already been kicked in, you only take what you really need, and you leave contact info, no it’s not looting.
I feel like the ethics debate would depend on the situation mostly leaning towards a medical emergency. For example picking locks at a doctor’s office or pharmacy maybe 6 months into a collapse because you have already run out of sterile supplies and medications. While I feel like it is your fault because you failed to stock enough I feel like this is justifiable. Siphoning pretty much same situation you need gas to run a community cooler that stores insulin or other medications that people need to live and you swipe gas from a station that has long since been closed. Otherwise if you’re doing it just to get stuff that you don’t need to keep someone alive then I say no don’t do it.
This stimulus question reminds me of a theory known as “situational ethics.” This theory was explored in the middle part of the last century by some non-tradiational Christian thinkers. The idea stemmed from the belief that Agape–a Greek word meaning unconditional love for all–is the only true law. There are no other morals codes or ethics. Agape is the end all be all. So, how does Agape play into situational ethics? Well, the idea–as I understand it–is to ask yourself before taking any action “does this advance the cause of true, unconditional love?” If it does, then do it. If it does not, then refrain. So, in a SHTF scenario, if one assumes Agape to be a reality, then let’s say you are considering siphoning some gas or picking a lock. You would ask yourself “do my proposed actions further true love?” Maybe, maybe not. For example, what if it’s 2 years into SHTF and you need some gas to transport a group of young orphans to a safe zone? What if you need to get some medication from a locked up pharmacy to save someone’s life? And it gets even trickier (and, arguably, easier to justify actions). What if you assume that the property owner practices Agape? Then wouldn’t the property owner WANT you to take the gas or the meds to save another?
I have to agree with j.r. There is nothing wrong with availing yourself of every option. I am new to prepping, and I get alot of great ideas from your site. This is another one! No one knows exactly what they would do or are capable of doing, until put into extreme situations. At the end of the day (for me) it would be about surviving period. I would hope that I do not have to harm anyone in the process, but I do have that option if needed. Great site!! Glad you all don’t blast others whose opinion differs from the majority of readers.
I think ethics are situational. When all of societies walls fall down who is to judge what ethics are in place. It will be up to each individual.
I think if there was a small lock standing between me and survival, (and there was no other person behind that lock) I would cross that barrier. For survival needs I would pick the lock but I wouldn’t pick the lock for looting.
Also if you are desperate……would you really use a lockpick? I think a brick or crowbar would be your weapon of choice. Lockpicks would be used in a more timely and silent fashion.
~Brandon
I woud like to point out a couple of simple things that may help clarify. IF the situation has broken down to the point that I am using those tools, the margins are likely to be very narrowed on the ethics question. What I mean by that is that a lot of people will already be gone IE haued away, interned somewhere or dead. That means a lot of the “property” you will be looking at as survival tools will be abandoned. Now at a persoal level, I am one of those guys who finds money on the ground and if the owner is standing there”identifiable” I give it back. IF there is no one ot give it back to, it says pay to the bearer and err go, it is now mine. In a situation where things have broken down to survival of the fitest, everything is on the table. IF it means MY LIFe or THIERS it is going to be THIERS everytime. NO, you should not be breaking into someone elses home to steal instead of working, NO you should not be taking gas from other peoples vehicles to run your own and NO you shouldnt take things that are not yours, HOWEVER in a situation where society has broken down to the point that ownership and posession are pretty much the same thing, all bets are off KATIE BAR THE DOOR! Here we go…..
I believe the golden rule and the ten commandments cover all of this question. Your ultimate judgement will be GOD’s whether you think you’re justified or not or whether you have faith or not. Relativity does not apply to morality or ethics.
This is indeed true. OTOH, it won’t slow down atheists much.
what a retarded generalization. you only need look at any recent poll about morality and religion and you’ll find out that atheists donate more money to charity and are less likely to commit a felony. atheists also have a better factual understanding of scripture and religious dogma (clearly they know enough to know that religion is for idiots). the golden rule and the 10 commandments didn’t do much to stem murderous rage during all the thousands of isntances of sectarian violence by christians against people of other faiths.
I have to agree. Odd Questioner, I believe a better way to say that would be, “It won’t slow down the amoral.” Atheists are not amoral, we understand the golden rule, we have ethics and morals and in many ways deal better with ethical questions because we’re not bogged down by stupid questions like, should I eat meat during lent, or will the sky daddy be angry if I mix pork and dairy in my dinner.
Atheism does not equate to thievery and crime.
If you are no where to be found (dead/ moved on) you better believe finders keepers play-ground rules kick in. If someone can lay a legitimate claim to something then I would leave well enough alone. If it gets bad enough where it’s life or death… Katie Bar the door indeed.
~Primal
I think we crashed H&J, I can’t load any of the links or get there from google.
~Primal
Is the link to that website not working for anyone else?
I think that when SHTF I would have to use/do whatever I could to protect my family so I could see my self using things like that. I’m sure I would feel bad about it afterwards but my family would always come first.
I think ethics is a moving mark. I don’t think it’s ethical to give someone who’s lazy and won’t work a free meal. But on the other hand I would gladly give a fee meal to someone who is legitimately trying to find a job, but not having any luck.
Ethics can easily be about the motive rather than the action itself.
There is obviously a fine line between looting and scavenging. I know people’s ethical concerns will go from one extreme to another. On one hand someone who is the last person alive still leaves cash on the counter to pay for something they are taking. On the other hand are those who will take from anyone and everyone if THEIR survival is at stake and not think twice about it. I think the answer lies in the definition of theft. Simply, it’s taking something from someone else without asking. If someone has abandoned their home completely they did so with the intent of forsaking all of the possessions in that house. In that case there is no one to “ask” and no one to “take from”. The same rule applies if they are deceased.
The bottom line is you just have to make the best decision you can based on the information available. If you guess wrong and someone comes looking for what you’ve taken then you are obligated to pay for it in whatever way you can.
my father in law took the lock-smith correspondence course. (therefore he had a lawful reason to be in possession of lock picking tools) with his guidance i was able to pick my first lock, in less than a minute. some locks, naturally, are more difficult than others… they are there to keep children from potentially harmful places, and to help keep honest people honest. (rapists and criminals don’t take “no” for an answer) make sure your motives are honest.
the tools themselves are useless without the knoweledge of how to use them. (but don’t get caught with them, while the “rule of law” remains)
very true
Lockpicks??? nope…12 Gauge better and more efficient…
Ethics???? we don’t need no steenkin’ ethics…in the post-apocalyptic world it is gonna be a whole different ballgame…..
Pump???? siphon us some corn squeezins’ out the barrell we will…..
Ethics are based on the circumstances at the time… if you were the only person on an island, would it be wrong to break into a cabin left behind years ago? What if the owner was still on the island?
To be honest, ethics are man made concepts of cooperative living and can be whatever you want them to be … it is is just easier if everyone agrees on them so there is no further dispute… some cultures may decide that stealing is ethical because it shows your strength (which is much admired in that culture)…
To say something is ethical or not requires you to know what the other person considers ethical.
Hey Ranger Man, Sure it is, left my keys in the house last week!
Perhaps if I need to help a very close friend or family member that has been hurt or incapacitated at there home and I have no key, blamo-bingo-bango. (Probably just break a window though ;)
I own guns, guns don’t kill, people do, right?
Goes the same for any other item. Picking tools won’t break into the wrong places, the picker will. & just like a gun, will use only if dire need be.
Store gas in cans, transfer to car, motorcycle, etc.
From a car lot, well maybe… “SHTF”
God Bless
I agree with others that there is definitely a fine line involved.
For instance, your neighbor notifies you that they are heading to live with family in the next county until the crises passes over. They load up everything they can and head out. A month or so in, you find yourself in need of gasoline for whatever reason. You see the crisis as not ending anytime soon so you justify taking the gas “it’ll be ruined by the time they return anyway, they’re taken care of in the next county”. You take the gas and use it. The next day they arrive to siphon the gas for themselves to help resupply their family but you’ve already taken it. You’ve just screwed your neighbor who entrusted you to help watch over their home.
There may be a collapsed century old barn that has salvageable sheet metal and wood for construction. You may see it as scavenging because of the condition of the structure, and it hasn’t been touched in decades. But if the property owner is also viewing that structure as a salvage opportunity you are a looter and not a scavenger.
In a SHTF scenario, garbage is no longer garbage. It’s an asset.
But to answer your question, I believe they’re simply providing options. Gas shortages occur from time to time and I like to know that I can tap the 30 or so gallons in my tank to run a generator if the situation warrants it. The lock pick set is the same way. You don’t necessarily have to use it to enter a structure, you may need to access public land (your tax dollars) and the gate is locked. Why destroy a perfectly good gate or lock when you can just pick it in a minute or two.
Lock picks are very useful! It’s best to store them oiled, because they are only very rarely used!
Once you learn how to use them you will realize just how insecure most locks really are!
They are only for times when it’s best to leave the lock still there… There are much easier ways to “get in” but for keeping the lock working, pick it.
Having a lock pick set (and skills) can make you money! Unfortunately, it also earns you weird looks! Just one lockout can pay for your pickset!
If you can’t afford a pickset, then a multi-tool and a safety pin will do the job.
As for the ethics of survival B&E… Crime is crime! Theft is theft. And, salvage is salvage.
I’ve helped many folks with my set, and I think they’re much better than a brick!
But do you really need a set? Only until you learn the basics… Are they creepy? Yes.
Don’t forget the other locksmithing tools… padlock shims, auto jigglers, bump keys, slim jims (almost useless now…), there’s a lot of cool locksmithing tools out there.
It will be a VERY useful skillset in a post doom world. It’s just not something you want to be bragging about, unless there’s a need.
Knowing how to garden and can, is a much more useful skill! But if you need to pick a lock, it sure is handy to know how!
Did I win?
if i was going to keep a set, or make picks, it would be wise to obtain a “bond”. (not sure about the requirements for that) post SHTF it may not be possible to maintain bonded status, but having had one in the past, would be a good idea. (along with maintaining a scrupiously clean “record”)
Having this equipment isn’t an issue , I have both , the lock picking tools I made myself . I made them mainly to help out people I know that lock themselves out of things frequently ( too frequently ) , The siphon I use for transferring fuel around ( My gas !!! ) If you need it for stealing from your neighbor , you not only should know better as a person , you should know better as a prepper/survivalist ! If you have to steal gas from somebody , you didnt prep ! Why doesn’t your vehicle have a full tank ? why dont you have several jerry cans of gas at your disposal ? why dont you have an alternative plan and stash ? your a troglodyte/zombie like all the others ! as a survivalist you will also know that stealing gas may cost that person their life ! Why are you not prepared ? fuel of every kind you need is a basic prep . Lock picks go along the same lines , if your a thief , you have failed with your preps . Granted , if its the end of everything , your stocks will eventually run out , at that point , you may be hard pressed to find anything good after waves and waves of panicked trogs and zombies have gone through the area . Your still a thief ! its like cheating on your wife , ” oh nobody will know ” YOU WILL KNOW ! you will also know you failed in your preparedness mission . As a side note , I would think that in a long term situation , your siphon would be put to better use to get clean water . Gas you can live without , water is blood .
Lock pics ? not a bad thing to have , but most locks will already be broken and the contents long pilfered . Prep Prep and more Prep ! scavenging is life a hair above death . Dont want to be there ? then Prep !
I believe looting is essential in an urban survival situation, although taking from stores isn’t always necessary. For example for water you can always “enter” uninhabited homes and get clean water from the water heater just as easily as anywhere else.
– please note http://www.imsplus.com has the same lock pick set for 17 dollars as opposed to the 45 your site has it for.
Another scenario to consider is a teotwawki situation. While it may be unethical to steal someone else’s possessions, what about the scavenge-able items left behind by those who have bug out or who have died? Besides these are simply tools used to better complete a task. You could simply drill or stab a hole into their tank and steal gasoline that way. You could take a sledgehammer to a door or padlock. But both of these are loud and destructive, not good for OPSEC.
I don’t care what you sell to be honest, but I can find most of your products cheaper on other sites. =)
Dude ! your site lags ! too much spiffy flash
well l think you can use the pick set for making money for the people who lock the keys in the car. At 45 dollars a pop it would pay off in no time.
After the hurricanes down here the store across from us lost the roof and it’s pumps. If we had had a way to pump it out, l’m sure he would have sold it to us. Couldn’t you use it for water say in a stream or river? Might be easier to pump into a container than trying to fill up and haul up a bank.
Not to mention a way to keep the water cleaner than walking around in it first stirring up sediment trying to get deep enough to fill the container.
i would not want to use that pump for water, if it has been previously used for oil or fuel. (i would however keep a second one, strictly for water)
Hadn’t planned to double use just an alternate use :)
i wasn’t really worried about you doing “double use”. some people “out there” have tried using cleaned out fuel jugs for drinking water…
Ethics was quoted as both “moral principles, as of an individual” and the “a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture”. Essentially this seems the chicken and the egg argument. If the ethics of the culture are merely the sum total of its individuals, then it would almost suggest that any individual’s ethics are valid, as they contribute to the sum total. But since the individual is born into a culture that predates their birth, their ethics must be derived from exposure to that larger culture. Furthermore, ethics vary not only within cultures, but also between cultures. This being said, perhaps only the golden rule can offer any sort of hard and fast guidelines.
Yes and thats why human beings self segregate , no amount of PC propaganda will change that .
I personally plan on bugging-in. If all my neighbors plan on bugging out, then what is left is salvage items after a few weeks, especially if they don’t plan on coming back.
In addition, many of my neighbors are elderly. It would be my duty to provide and protect.
I think the ethics debate is useful. People should realize the difference between looting and recovering abandoned supplies.
I’ve serviced abandoned homes and sometimes the bank didn’t send me a key. A cordless drill will get you into most homes. Its scary when you see just how easy it is to defeat a door lock.
I actually have a siphon pump in my BoV toolbox. If it comes to that, I’m taking all the gas in our other vehicle (have cans just for that) and have no desire to get a mouthful of gas (done that before, not fun). A siphon pump could also be useful later while bugging out – I would consider giving ride to someone with a disabled vehicle and taking the gas in their tank before going.
Don’t have a pick set yet but have considered it. If bugging out on foot you can run across locked gates. I’d pick a lock (and lock it back) to cross a property if I thought I could do so w/o getting myself/family killed or bothering anyone.
I also have a small crowbar in my BoB. Could be used for all sorts of legitimate scavenging post collapse, especially after a die-off.
Scavenging and looting have specific enough definitions and are not the same thing.
” I would consider giving ride to someone with a disabled vehicle and taking the gas in their tank before going.”
Good point!
I think there are many uses for a siphon and lock pick set that are completely ethical.
Most certainly there are NO ethics in a survival situation. Besides, why bother with a siphon pump when you can easily puncture a gas tank or with a lock pick set when a pair of quality bolt cutters (or maybe your foot) will do the job faster and easier? Just my thoughts.
if you puncture the gas tank, you may have more gas “on your hands” than you expected. the average gas thief around here isn’t worried about the spillage, but one of these nights an un-anticipated ignition source might cause him to think differently.
I read somewhere, Wendell Berry maybe, that morals are your inner beliefs, ethics are how you apply those beliefs. I like that one.
There’s nothing wrong with having lock picks. There’s everything wrong with using them to steal. There’s nothing wrong with selling lock picks. There’s everything wrong with selling lock picks to a thief.
How do the folks at H&J know that they’re not selling their picks to thieves? It’s not something I’d sell to anyone on the net.
If I owned a store, I might keep a few sets behind the counter to sell to customers that I was pretty sure wouldn’t be using them to steal stuff.
“The spoils go to the victor” is a long-held principle of warfare. I can recall a number of examples in the Holy Bible where the Israelites were allowed to clean out the enemy camps after the Lord defeated the enemy. There is also the practice of “gleaning” defined in Mosaic Law. I believe if the former owners of property are no longer living and no heirs have claimed the property in a reasonable amount of time given the circumstances existing in a SHTF scenario that failure to claim the resources needed to preserve one’s life would be unethical.
We did a lot of gleaning when I was a kid. We’d get a years supply of apple sauce and pie filling, canned peaches, some corn for the freezer and some other stuff all for free.
Lying to the devil or stealing from him is no sin. That said, using these items to loot possesions of living people puts you in the same position as any other looter (possibly in someone’s sights).
i don’t find a thing wrong with living 4 free after all i work all my life and when the shtf there be alot of cars siting around waiting 4 some one to take there gas n go on. it’s call survival so get prepare now and may god by with you all when shtf comes.
It is a debate based on your intentions. If I’m using a lock pick set to break into your house to steal your things, then yes, that is wrong and ethics plays a part.
If I’m using the lock pick set to get into a locked door because I need to hide from a roving gang or the houses are already abandoned then, no, no ethics. Your intent is to break in to hide as opposed to break in to steal something.
And we aren’t talking about normal times here. We are talking about when the crap goes down. Everyone’s moral ethics are going to be tested. Is it right to steal a loaf of bread from a grocery store. In normal times, no it is not. If your kids are on the edge of starvation, then I don’t know what parent would not do whatever they could to get their kids some food.
Going back to the lock pick. If you wanted to get in and hide, which is more obvious. The window you broke to get in the building, or the locked door that you picked leaving no other trace?
(post SHTF ) What if you ,or you’r little girl was looked at as a meal or a meal ticket. tosted into a room with a deadbolt, lockpick might help, if you trained them,how to use them, ( don’t forget the donner party) lol. an gas after about 6 mounth’s or so, may not run a car, maybe good for a lamp. way out the box here.
I believe there are many ethical survival situations where a set of lock picks or a gas siphon pump are very useful.
Comments, for purposes of entering the competition, are now closed. Thank you all.
re:”gas” pump
Here it is at HF:
http://www.harborfreight.com/multi-use-transfer-pump-66418.html
All the negative comments are true for losing suction after using it for gas, hoses falling off, or collapsing. I know, I have one held together with white zip ties.
It is worth $12 for spotty use, not worth $12 for EOTWAWKI use, imho.
I would not pump gas without making sure it was grounded grounded.