Special Weapons And Tactics Teams and Your Rights

This topic is a tough one for me to get my head around.  On my morning forays through the news I’ll occasionally stumble over something like this:  SWAT raids wrong home and terrorizes family.

I read it and I think to myself, “Man, that is so messed up.”

Are stories like this a sign that our rights as American citizens are eroding?  Who wants to be sound asleep in their bed with their kids down the hall and have a Special Weapons team like this break in and put everybody under the gun?  What would happen if a citizen fought back and killed a cop in a situation like this?  Would it be considered self defense or murder?

These are tough questions, but ask yourself this:  if you’re at a bank and suddenly five guys break in and open up with MAC 10s and you’re in the middle of a hostage situation who do you want to come for you?  Seems to me you’d be mighty happy to see those guys in black uniforms and machine guns come in and save the day.

Origins of SWAT

In case you haven’t heard SWAT stands for Special Weapons And Tactics.  The first offical SWAT team was implemented in California and the idea for it seems to have built up over several incidents dating back to 1954.  Probably the defining moment for the need of a “Riot Squad” or SWAT team was when Charles Whitman shot 46 people (15 who died) from the top of a bell tower at the University of Texas.

The police were way out of their league on this one and it wasn’t until a few cops and a civilian used a little ingenuity and a lot of courage and brought the shooter down.  Whitman’s reign of terror ended, but the idea for a Special Weapons And Tactics team lived on.  Shortly thereafter the Los Angeles Police Department trained and implemented the first SWAT team.

These special teams have enjoyed success over the years in helping to stop bad situations.  The problem with a group of elite men like this is that it causes them to be revered by others much like Navy SEALS, Marine RECON, or Army Special Forces are revered in the military; however, military special forces teams are trained to operate in enemy territory and to kill people, but a SWAT team works here at home – right outside our doors.

 Too Much of a Good Thing?

Like I said earlier, if I’m in a hostage situation I’d like to have specialists come to the rescue if that’s what it comes down to, but if someone is growing a little weed in their apartment the last thing needed is a full SWAT team doing a “knock and enter“.  To me this is simply a misuse of power.  It’s like shooting a fly with a .44 Magnum.

Another problem is that SWAT is like a weapon that can be pointed at the wrong target.  All it takes is some bad intelligence information and suddenly an innocent family is bearing the brunt of a wrongful invasion.  (See first link.)

If you’re thinking, “Ya have to break some eggs to make an omelet,” then you’ve obviously never been the egg.

But…

With the amount of increasing violence in our country does it make sense that more of our towns and cities have SWAT teams?  Do we need increasing police firepower in order to combat the elevated level of violent crimes?  Tit for tat?

Personally, I don’t care for the idea that a team of masked men can barge into my home at any time, kick my ass, and put my family under the gun simply because they’re the police and have a semi-good reason.  On the flip side I don’t want something like the North Hollywood Shootout to happen because there’s no effective team around to stop them.

Then again I can’t think of an instance like that happening in Maine, but you never know.

Regardless, I want to know what your thoughts are on this topic.  I know it’s a touchy subject with a lot of people and I tend to get some flack from police officers who read this blog.  Let me say this:  I am not against the police.  When there’s trouble I like to know there’s a cop at the end of my cell phone willing to help out.  What I am against are Special teams used when there really isn’t a need for them.

Thoughts?  Ideas?

Sound off below!

-Jarhead Survivor

 BTW:  I had a report that a reader couldn’t comment.  If anyone else has that problem please email me at shtfblog@gmail.com

Thanks!

-JS

104 comments… add one
  • j.r. guerra in s. tx. November 2, 2012, 8:34 am

    Down here in lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas, the Texas Department of Public Safety has a case of a LEO sniper shooting at a motor vehicle they suspected of carrying drugs, but in fact were carrying illegal aliens in back of truck. Aiming for tires, they killed two illegal aliens in back of truck, those aliens in view (they claim) in back of truck. The officer was just put back in active duty – see link from KRGV-TV here on that.

    http://tinyurl.com/a26mfz4

    Texas DPS is only LEO organization with ability to shoot at fleeing vehicles, but there are some grumbling if this is a bit too much freedom for them.

    Reply
  • AilimD'SilverFir November 2, 2012, 9:10 am

    Power is a dangerous thing. It seems that no matter how nobel the intentions, it will always be “for the good of the many, screw a few”. That worries me and one who sees herself as one of the few. Maybe it’s my upbringing, but I am always leary of any one with power, gov issued power to be precises: it would be so easy to declare martial law at the next glitch in the US’s Security, and wam bam thank you mam, all our rights go out the door, and the gov would have the man power to try and do it in many places

    Reply
  • Spook45 November 2, 2012, 9:31 am

    Ive done this kind of work. BAck in 04 rolled with Joint Fugitive Task Force on OPeration CONDOR II serving outstanding felony warrents. We had two US MArshells and a mixed bag or state and Local LE. I have to say that the SWAT thing has GONE WAY WAY OVER THE TOP. We have teams in places that will probly never need them and the situation is RIPE for abuse and I have seen it first hand. On any given day one can read through the Litiney of mistaken ID, wrong address, and fourth amendment abuses in MASS! They routinely kill people by not having good intel or going to the wrong house. This is a place where there is NO MARGIN OF ERROR. You are SERVING CIVILIANS and thus, no coller is worth a human life. IF the person is a criminal dirtbag, you will cross his path again and you WILL get him. Point being is that no persons life is worth one dirtbag that you KNOW will screw up again and eventually get whats coming to them. In reallity the degridation of the 4th amendment with advent of sneak and peek and NO KNOCK warrents is a recipe for disaster. In our country and in most states, we can own guns have the right to protect ourselves and our homes, how is a civilian supposed to know if you have a wrrent to enter if you dont call out. I realize in some specific situations (usually with large amounts of dope where evidence can be destroyed or lost) there is SOME rational for a rapid entry no knock warrent but the litmus test for this should be very high. OTher than the rare odd circumstance, the Officer should always have to present and read the warrent to the home owner or renter or what ever. Nothing says you cant make entry on the warrent and secure the scene AND THEN read them the warrent detained and cuffed for safety. At least this way the loss of inocent life is stemmed and protected and the liability of the officers, thier superiors and thier departments is all itact. I have seen so many of those where people are killed for NOTHING and no lawsuits filed. What a shame.

    Reply
    • John November 4, 2012, 6:06 pm

      Spook, you very obviously haven’t done much police work. The feds aren’t the real police, despite what you were told. You obviously have very little knowledge of SWAT despite your claims. One cannot claim to have a working knowledge of SWAT from serving a few arrest warrants in 2004.

      Reply
      • Anonymous November 5, 2012, 1:50 pm

        why not rebut his claims? are you suggesting that there is NO abuse of power? are you suggesting that EVERY no-knock warrant is justified?

        you “obviously” haven’t a clue about civil rights.

        Reply
        • John November 5, 2012, 10:32 pm

          I was making a point that the type of work he was doing had nothing to do with SWAT. Serving arrest warrants with a task force isn’t SWAT work, or even really police work for the most part.
          …No knock warrants are usually approved or disapproved by a judge, therefore if the warrant is a violation of rights, the judge should be responsible. I honestly don’t see why using SWAT to serve a warrant could be considered a civil rights violation without the presence of either brutality, or serving the warrant on the wrong house. The US Constitution doesn’t say that the police have to appear a certain way, or use certain weapons or tactics. It only says that the military cannot be used as a police force, probable cause is needed to enter a home, and that excessive force cannot be used to effect an arrest. SWAT isn’t part of the military, they are police officers that are trained to be police officers and understand the law, unlike sodiers. Just because you don’t like the way that SWAT looks, doesn’t mean much at all.

          Reply
          • Jason November 6, 2012, 9:57 am

            John you said:

            “The US Constitution doesn’t say that the police have to appear a certain way, or use certain weapons or tactics. It only says that the military cannot be used as a police force, probable cause is needed to enter a home, and that excessive force cannot be used to effect an arrest. ”

            Until the Patriot Act ….

            SWAT’s over zealous & increasingly less accountable actions can easily explained by a theory, commonly known as “the trickle down effect.”

            Isn’t it interesting that George Bush signed it into law 11 years ago & the rise of a police state mentality has risen dramatically in that period of time?

            Sorry pal but I do not believe in coincidence.

  • mike November 2, 2012, 9:42 am

    I believe the problem with SWAT teams raiding the wrong house is that there is no disincentive for doing so, at least none that I am aware of. If the municipality that employed the SWAT team were required by law to compensate the victims of such a mistake for actual damages and mental distress (without the victims having to resort to lawsuits), and if the chief of police were required to apologize in person to the victims of the mistaken raid, then I would bet that the number of mistaken raids would approach zero. Nothing encourages performance like accountability.

    Reply
    • John November 3, 2012, 3:15 pm

      ….and the problem with that, is that you are blaming the wrong people. SWAT doesn’t write warrants, apply for warrants or even investigate cases. They simply perform a warrant service for detectives in situation where it is deemed a high risk warrant, for various reasons. SWAT does not do any of the groundwork such as locating the suspects, making sure the address is correct, making sure the warrant has probable cause, etc. They simply are handed a warrant by detectives in most cases, then formulate a raid plan, execute it, secure the location and leave. In reality, they should be FAR more controlled and trained than a group of regular cops who show up and break down a door.

      Reply
      • Anonymous November 5, 2012, 1:51 pm

        the wrong address stuff goes from officers transposing numbers and going to a different house than is signified on the warrant.

        Reply
        • John November 5, 2012, 10:38 pm

          Wrong. SWAT usually obtains a copy of the warrant. The problems associated with the “wrong house” events, are based on bad police work in the first place, which then gets passed along to SWAT. Many times, informants provide bad information, and a detective unit botches the investigation by relying completely on the informants word, rather than using the information to conduct a proper investigation before obtaining a warrant. Also, something as simple as a typo can happen when writing the warrant, changing the house number from 6009 to 6099. Furthermore, houses can be sold and repurchased, or apartments can change occupants during the investigation. Without proper surveillance, and confirmation, these mistakes are relayed to SWAT, who then serve the warrant properly, but the warrant wasn’t proper in the first place.

          Reply
          • Jason November 6, 2012, 10:08 am

            So what you are saying John is SWAT is not accountable, they simply carry out the marching orders? It is the deep assumption of guilt without any thought otherwise – even when they make mistakes that is at issue.

            In the “normal” world when a mistake equally as severe is made, feet are held to the fire. The only exception to that rule is law enforcement. That is fact.

            You better take a long, hard & comprehensive study of 1939 Nazi Germany when they invaded Poland & the events leading up to it.

            Like I said before, I do not believe in coincidence.

  • testing November 2, 2012, 10:17 am

    This is only a test

    Reply
  • Mike November 2, 2012, 10:18 am

    I tried sending this comment to the Comments section, but I received some sort of weird message from the computer that I’d never seen before. So I figured I would e-mail.

    I think the problem with mistaken SWAT raids is that there is no downside to the mistaken raid, at least that I am aware of. If the victims of the raid were required by law to be compensated for actual damages as well as mental distress and if the Chief of Police was required by the same law to offer a personal apology for the raid, I would be willing to bet that the incidence of mistaken raids would approach zero. Nothing encourages performance like accountability.

    I don’t know that “increasing violence in our country” is statistically provable. It may very well be that, given the increase in the number of ways we can access news, we just hear about it more. It may also be that an increasing population means an increasing amount of violence. Maybe the per capita rate hasn’t changed. Food for thought.

    Reply
  • riverrider November 2, 2012, 10:32 am

    i’m a former officer. i saw this coming in the late 80’s. the force has been undergoing a slow but steady militarization. it started with the uniform and gradually went to weapons, then how we dealt with and saw the public not as citizens but as future perps. then clinton came along and gave every one-dog dept. a bunch of cash that could only be used for swat gear. so now 1000’s of barney fifes are running around playing a game they aren’t trained for and led by adventure seekers with personal agendas. magistrates are used in leiu of judges for warrants. these magistrates seldom have any legal training at all and are usually rubber stamps for whatever barney wants. the courts upholding “good faith” nailed the coffin shut on the 4th amendment. i’ve told my locals if they have a problem with me, just walk up and tell me, i’ll go freely. but kick my door at 3 a.m. and somebody won’t see the dawn.

    Reply
    • Jason November 3, 2012, 4:18 am

      Love the last 2 sentences. Sharp & to the point!

      Reply
  • Jarhead Survivor November 2, 2012, 10:50 am

    test

    Reply
    • Templar November 2, 2012, 11:04 am

      My attempt failed.

      Reply
    • j.r. guerra in s. tx. November 2, 2012, 1:37 pm

      But I didn’t know about pop quiz!

      Reply
  • Templar November 2, 2012, 11:04 am

    SWAT teams have no place in LOCAL law enforcement agencies. Too many of them have become modern-day Gestapo squads. At a state level, maybe. Remember the Constitution? “Serve and protect”? BTW, I’ve been a police officer for 16+ years.

    Reply
  • Joe (another) November 2, 2012, 11:10 am

    “A cop’s work is to arrest and cage people who do not obey the law. Nothing less. It is not to protect. Human rights be damned. If they object, if they resist, the cop has license under the law to assault them. To kill them.
    Courts have conferred on cops limitless and unaccountable authority, in a system that rewards cops for brutalizing others. They demand immediate submission to an endless litany of tyrannical edicts and are empowered to do literally anything, for any reason at all.
    Cops are the enemy. Whatever the law is, it must be enforced. The cop will tell you so himself. In a doctrinal way, the cop is exactly like the people who were rightly strung up at Nuremburg after WWII, who stated – truthfully – that they were just following orders.
    They were not merely thugs. They were duly appointed thugs. They did not do the awful things they did at random.
    Orders are orders. A cop who will pull a gun on you for refusing to wear a seatbelt will do much worse When he is ordered to.”

    And yes, I have been the egg.

    Reply
  • Jason November 2, 2012, 11:11 am

    Jarhead I think one of the core issues is we have been moving towards to a society that is considered guilty before proven innocent. This condition has accelerated immensely over the past 3 decades & is more global in thinking, not necessarily in the minds of the police enforcing their will upon us BUT they do take it a bit far under the color of authority, no question.

    I place much of the blame upon this vastly uncensored vehicle called the Internet & followed very closely by the mainstream media. With this vast amount of information at our fingertips we have become driven into an altered reality called cyberspace.

    The MSM generates news stories that are negative AND they sensationalize them to the Nth degree & we get sucked in because of the social connectivity. Then you have outright lunatics who have blog sites whom exacerbate that negativity with outlandish claims & conjecture – the more clever the writer, the greater the deception.

    It boils down to this – we have become a society that does not trust in a global thinking sense & is far more fragile. We simply look around & much of our thoughts are geared towards not trusting which leads to thoughts of rapid flare up becoming more the norm. The price goes up a couple of pennies on a can of soup & we now hate Walmart. A short 40 years ago that would never had been the case.

    Here’s something I lived through in the 70’s – it is 100% true & happened in a great metropolitan area I lived in – Los Angeles.

    We had an oil embargo going on nationwide & you could only buy gas for your car every other day. That day was determined by the last number on your license plate – even number meant buy on the even day of the calendar & the odd number meant the odd day. Next & more crucial was you were limited to 10 gallons per fill up.

    It was not uncommon to wait in line for 30-45 minutes & sometimes up to an hour. On the fairly rare occasion the gas station ran out of gas while you waited in line. People did not honk, shake fists, scream at each other, cut anybody off, give dirty looks at the gas station owners – none of it, people simply dealt with it.

    Now imagine just half of that scenario today – it would be utter mayhem …..

    Our laws are now been written as a reaction to this condition to contain this bubbling mess we live in. We as a society have bastardized & pushed well beyond the limits to our freedoms by calling everything freedom of press, expression & so forth. The Patriot Act is the prime example of laws written to quell the masses & has no accountability with the broad brush definition of domestic terrorism.

    Your neighboring blog site managed my Creekmore can be considered a domestic terrorist because he now is a textbook profile of the Patriot Act’s broad brush definition & if the S was beginning to hi the fan, I guarantee you he would disappear without a trace faster than free burgers at McDonalds. He believes his cache of weapons & ammo would protect him but that’s a complete fantasy he sells.

    Now SWAT is a useful organization but their mindset is guilty before innocence. They literally bust down the wrong door while dressed in armor & after the house has been cleared & all inhabitants are subdued at gun point it becomes an oops, sorry wrong door but don’t you dare yell at us or we’ll cart you off to jail. I promise you that 50 years ago the attitude would have been a polar opposite.

    When we see life for what it really is & not through the eyes & filters created by the Internet, we will begin to see change – that is our only hope for the present.

    Reply
  • Odd Questioner November 2, 2012, 11:15 am

    That would be a very touchy subject, and one which would require some thinking…

    On the one hand, you have every right to defend your home.

    On the other? Well, you’re still one guy, half-asleep and fumbling for a pistol. They are well-armed and there are a team of ’em. Odds are perfect that you’re getting killed if you reach for the gun.

    As long as civilization is still up and spinning, I’d say your best bet is to use the legal system against them. Lawyers would happily line up at your door to help you do that (on contingency, of course) if you were wrongfully invaded by the cops. Given the size of some of the jury awards that the Portland (OR) police department has had to pay up for lesser incidents, let’s just say that in most cases, you could retire very comfortably after such an incident, especially if anyone got hurt or any property was damaged.

    Now post-SHTF (or even during)? I would hope that you had some sort of watch going, so you could stand them off before they got in your yard, let alone the door.

    Reply
  • GoneWithTheWind November 2, 2012, 11:25 am

    You have hit the nail on the head. We need law enforcement just as we need courts and lawyers. It is when these entities go astray that our rights and lives are at risk. There should be a better system to identify abuses and take strong actions to make sure it never happens again. One of the problems is that even police who abuse their power cannot easily be fired. In my opinion there should be zero tolerance for abuse of power. One strike and you are at the very least looking for a job. I don’t want a policeman to retain their job if they beat up innocent people or commit a crime.

    Reply
  • smokechecktim November 2, 2012, 11:57 am

    about a month ago there were stories of people calling in fake hostage situations to the police. SWAT responds and cuffs everybody until they can figure out what the real situation is. It seems that they are doing this to political supporters of another party that express opinions they dont like. In all the cases no one was shot or hurt but to lay on your front lawn, cuffed with the men in black all over the place cant be a good experience and could be fairly traumatic to any children involved.

    Reply
  • ThatguyinCA November 2, 2012, 12:01 pm

    Totaly down with SWAT teams. No problems here. However I would be PISSED if what happened to that family happened to me. Any bit of amatuer intel on site for 15 minutes would tell them their data was wrong. However, I understand the need to move quickly with “shock and awe.”

    If they raided the wrong house and got drilled because of it, the homeowner should be treated the same as if he shot an armed intruder, because that’s what they were. Anyone can buy the gear they wear the yell “Police!” If said homeowner was gunned down after drilling a cop during a wrongful raid then the survivors should be within their right to sue.

    Just because they are cops they should not be given a free pass here. In most cases a simple double check of the data can avert this type of situation.

    I have no hatred of the police at all, I respect and support them and even aided an officer in a footchase scenario in the past (better than any tackle I made in high school) and would again if necessary but a scenario like this, while not always completely unavoidable, is not acceptable.

    Here is a raid (a legitmate one) that happened recently in a town nearby. Not sure if worked as a link, if not, just open a new browser window and copy and paste into the url bar.

    http://www.petaluma360.com/article/20120503/community/120509872?p=4&tc=pg

    Reply
  • EW3 November 2, 2012, 12:07 pm

    What if 5 men with MAC-10’s burst into a bank and all the patrons, tellers and managers pulled weapons and confronted them?
    Refer to the James Gang’s raid on the bank at Northfield, Minnesota.
    We “need” SWAT only because the State has disarmed us and turned us into a bunch of pathetic victims.
    I saw a video clip this morning of some fat guy in NJ whining about “…that’s what government is for! To do the things for us that we can’t do ourselves!”
    Really? Can not or will not? DO NOT trade freedom for security at any level! Don’t give an inch!

    Reply
  • Tim November 2, 2012, 12:12 pm

    “Seems to me you’d be mighty happy to see those guys in black uniforms and machine guns come in and save the day.”

    They’ll be saving someone’s day, but I doubt it’ll be *yours*. I’m a big fan of the police in general, but despite “serve & protect” spray-painted on their cruisers, their purpose in life isn’t to protect you or your stuff.

    They exist to enforce the law. If that happens to coincide with saving your bacon, “hey, that’s great”, but let’s be clear:
    Police are under no obligation whatsoever to defend you from an illegal attack. A much as I love them, it is simply not their responsibility.

    Reply
  • Watchdog November 2, 2012, 12:30 pm

    I can only comment from a Canadian perspective but the situations are similar. Here in the ‘Great White North’, SWAT teams are called ETF ( Emergency Task Force). They look like black combat helmeted Ninjas in high tech tactical gear , carrying H&K automatic weapons. When they come knocking they….well, don’t knock. What happens in America happens here. Sometimes with the same tragic consequences.

    All it takes is a disgruntled neighbor to make a “man with a gun” call and you will suddenly find yourself, at 04:00, in a whole world of pain.

    We as Canadians, do not have the protection of the 2nd Amendment. Here, ALL firearms are illegal, unless you are fortunate enough to have the governments PERMISSION to have a firearm. The process to obtain a licence is costly, intrusive and highly bureaucratic. So it is assumed by the unwashed sheeple masses that anyone in possession of a gun is a criminal and must be dealt quickly with extreme prejudice until it can be verified that the individual in question does indeed possess a licence. OMG!

    The practice known as “SWATING” is becoming more common here, whereby somebody who has a grudge against you calls the police and claims that you have a gun (either unlicenced or in a manner that is a threat to the public peace…whatever that means) even if you don’t own a gun. Yeah, you guessed it! Party of Twenty comes crashing through your front door, shoots your pet ( for safety reasons of course) traumatizes your kids and wife, causes fire damage from using flash-bangs and performs cavity searches in front of your neighbors. Nice.

    As long as firearms are demonized by the left-wing consensus media, (here or in the U.S.) more and more of these incidences will occur. Some have already paid the ultimate price. Oops, sorry. Next.

    The militarization of the police force, while formed with good intentions, has become a dangerous and often abusive instrument of the state. There needs to be more accountability and control over such enormous power.

    In my humble opinion, this IS the precursor to the rational normalization of the ‘police state’.

    (Author is retired LEO/Military)

    Reply
  • Vegas TD November 2, 2012, 12:54 pm

    The problem with militarizing the police, is that they will tend to look for reasons to “maintain their edge” and “test their skills” or just to use the toys that they have. I think that a simple way to calm things down would be for SWAT officers to wear standard police uniforms when they are on a callout. They are civilian peace officers- not “High speed, low drag operators” working in a free-fire zone.
    If they were in full uniform, there would be no question about who they are. In a bank robbery or hostage situation, the bad guys are often dressed in black… but so are the good guys- which is which?
    The idea of “no-knock” or “one-knock and enter” warrants are ridiculous to me. There is the possibility of flushing an 8 ball down the toilet, but does an 8 Ball warrant that level of aggression?
    I have several friends that are SWAT officers and I respect them greatly- but there is no need for them to play Army by dressing in OD fatigues or black fatigues on duty. Wear a Metro Uniform, like Metro Officers are supposed to.

    Reply
    • John November 4, 2012, 6:14 pm

      The reasoning behind the military armor, ie, how SWAT appears, is in the situations that SWAT is designed for. Criminals are increasingly using military style weapons, such as the AK47 or AR15. Regular police ballistic vests don’t stop rounds from those guns.

      Reply
      • Anonymous November 5, 2012, 2:00 pm

        they can put a plate carrier over their uniforms. they don’t need the drop leg holsters and the helmets and the goggles and the leaded gloves. i call BS.

        Reply
        • John November 5, 2012, 10:42 pm

          You’ve obviously never worn a tac vest. Trying to wear a patrol gunbelt and a tac vest doesn’t work. The vest hangs far to low, making access to belt accessories very difficult, especially under stress. Helmets are made of Kevlar and meant to stop or at least deflect a round. Goggles are to prevent teargas or pepper spray from having an effect on the operator. The gloves are worn for the same reasons that patrol officers wear gloves.

          Reply
          • Jason November 6, 2012, 10:18 am

            Obviously you have not looked at it from a different perspective or an outside point of view. As I referred above about Poland, imagine YOU were a Jew & saw the SS come barreling down your street looking for the guilty, any guilty.

            Until you see the other side, you will be nothing but a narrow minded thug with a badge & a brotherhood of like minded guys containing a legalized gang mentality.

            It is a pure lack of intelligence & not a whole lot different than the criminals.

  • Waterboy November 2, 2012, 1:05 pm

    Glad they are there…hope they don’t come to my house by mistake.

    Reply
  • sput November 2, 2012, 1:15 pm

    Again, SWAT is great, until you are the target. All involved in a bad raid need to be held accountable. No immunity for bad informants, wrong address, or bogus warrants.

    Reply
  • T.R. November 2, 2012, 1:32 pm

    Stalin would be proud .

    Reply
    • riverrider November 3, 2012, 11:58 am

      +1

      Reply
  • T.R. November 2, 2012, 1:33 pm

    I do like that picture tho ………makes me think of how much damage a grenade would do in that tight grouping .

    Reply
    • riverrider November 3, 2012, 12:10 pm

      thats why i have fences, dogs, alarms, motion lights beginning 100 yards out, and high porch railings with one gate, and obstacles to helo landing in the open areas. one big funnel with me, body armor, and an m4 at the small end. they’ll get me, but they’ll have a hell of a lot of paperwork to do :)

      Reply
      • T.R. November 3, 2012, 4:28 pm

        A few home made claymores and ……….its a beautiful thing !

        Reply
  • kevin November 2, 2012, 2:02 pm

    you raise a very good point on both counts its a tricky balanceing act BUT a swat team SHOULD have not good intell but GREAT INTELL before they bust down somebodys door in the middle of the night they need to double and triple check there intell because THEY ALREADY DID bust down the wrong door a iraq vet was asleep AT HOME his wife saw armed men running by the windows she ran and woke him up first thing he did was grab HIS gun they broke down the door and he was shot and killed

    Reply
    • T.R. November 2, 2012, 9:02 pm

      My question is …..HOW CAN YOU BREAK DOWN THE WRONG DOOR !!!!!!! ………..are they morons !!!?????

      what pisses me off the most is that nobody goes to prison for it .

      Reply
      • Anonymous November 5, 2012, 2:03 pm

        yes. many cops are completed and utter morons. in detroit, you only need a GED to enter the city police academy. you should read the complaints these jabrones write. they write at the level of a 5th grader.

        Reply
  • Ft.Defiance November 2, 2012, 2:06 pm

    I share your concerns. We have a real need for a well trained and equipped force for use during periods of extreme hazard. They should not be used however for any and all warrant servings and other uses. When our Police look more like soldiers on a raid in Fallujah and less like Officer Friendly: the result will be the public treating them like an occupying army and not like a respected civil servants and public partners.

    Reply
  • Steve S November 2, 2012, 2:29 pm

    This is one of these issues that I’ve come full circle on in the past couple of years. I used to have the perspective that SWAT teams were rarely used, and when they were, is was in life-or-death type situations. Way back when, that was the case. But it is no longer the case, and like you mention, they are used in minor drug cases where the suspect has no criminal history and no prior history of violence.

    Our police have become militarized, and the multiple thousands of times each year that SWAT teams are used are just one example of this.

    The use of SWAT teams needs to be drastically reduced, and the instances when they should be authorized needs to be severely restricted.

    I, too, get flack from friends who are involved in the Law Enforcement profession, and the guys I know are decent folks, pro-2nd Amendment, and very liberty-minded. But, the primary job of a LEO is to enforce the law. They don’t make the laws, they just enforce them, and if we have an issue with the law, then we need to enact the process to get it changed(I was told this by a LEO friend).

    In the grand scheme of things these incidences are rare, but they are becoming less so, as the use of SWAT teams continues to increase, especially for minor offenses.

    I hope I’m never faced with one of these situations, because I’d probably end up dead, and I wouldn’t be alone.

    Reply
  • dsd November 2, 2012, 2:40 pm

    unfortunately it is a situation that if the local PD does not utilize their SWAT teams and weapons then there is less justification for keeping them.

    so, they get used for more and more mundane assignments – and perversely then they use these “successful” operations with often zero casualties as increased justification for using SWAT more and more (and increasing weaponry) as many even small town’s have a SWAT team and even things such as armored troop carriers (usually provided via DHS money)

    it’s the underlying pattern and direction that is the most disturbing thing… after all – BO wanted a force as large and as well armed as the military. the frequent steps to bring PD into the DHS fold is the end result.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

    actually this is the norm for most third world countries and dictators – so it seems we are well on our way.

    Reply
    • riverrider November 3, 2012, 12:15 pm

      roger that. i saw my local sheriff’s new blacked-out mrap cruise thru town a couple days ago. too bad for them i already know where to hit it and with what. they better learn how to un-ass that thing in a hurry :)

      Reply
      • T.R. November 3, 2012, 9:32 pm

        History is a good teacher …….the Russians knocked out a lot of German tanks in urban areas with Molotov cocktails .

        Reply
  • Boonie November 2, 2012, 2:46 pm

    The Bell Tower is an example of citizen response working and is not an argument for SWAT. While there are definitely some good uses for SWAT such as the bank hostage situation you propose, the problem is that having these teams funded and waiting around means that departments find new things for them to do. They’re now being used to serve warrants on small time drug dealers. The more they’re used, the more mistakes are going to be made. We really ought to go back to when our police weren’t militarized.

    Reply
    • T.R. November 3, 2012, 9:42 pm

      Sheriff Joe seems to be doing his job just fone without all that . just sayin

      Reply
      • Anonymous November 5, 2012, 2:06 pm

        sheriff joe has his own unique ways of crushing people’s civil liberties. he’s no hero.

        Reply
  • Ray November 2, 2012, 2:52 pm

    Outside of Lexinton and louisville SWAT teams see little use here. Most of the countys in Ky don’t have them. The ones that do(Fayett + Jefferson+KSP) don’t use them much. They found that sending LEOs in without SWAT , for most things ,makes for many fewer dead cops.See EVERYBODY in KY is armed. This is a SHALL ISSUE CC state. + 2/3 of the commonwelth has a rifle. Most cops in Ky carry M-16a1 anyway. The inner citys are war zones but not the countryside. If you see cops outside the city its gonna be KSP. They are badass good. A” raid” in KY is usually 2 sheriffs + 1 trooper. Or FEDs ,but thats a different story.

    Reply
  • Michael November 2, 2012, 3:07 pm

    ” What would happen if a citizen fought back and killed a cop in a situation like this? Would it be considered self defense or murder?”

    Years ago, I had a co-worker who’s son killed a cop in exactly this situation. My co-worker’s son woke up to the sound of his front door getting kicked in, he grabbed his .38 out of his night stand, fired at the first guy he saw, and killed him. He was found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison. A couple years later the sentence was changed to 20 years. My co-worker was never the same after watching his kid go to jail, always angry, always stressed, drank too much. He died of a massive stroke in his early 60’s. I think the guy’s son has about 5 more years to go on his sentence.

    Back in the day they used to surround houses, hit the bright lights and get on a megaphone, “we’ve got you surrounded, come on out with your hands up.” I like the old way better.

    I don’t think we get better policing from the militarization of the police force. But the military industrial complex got a new, rather large, and profitable, market from it.

    Reply
    • 3rdMan November 3, 2012, 10:45 am

      Michael,

      Important question because you left it out. Where the police at the right house and was the son the target of the arrest.

      Reply
      • Jason November 3, 2012, 10:55 am

        Wow 3rdMan – great question.

        Reply
  • yODA November 2, 2012, 4:40 pm

    ARiveting piece Jarhead:
    When six guys with automatic weapons storm through your door your rights go out the window.
    Natural disasters, Middle East war, “Civil disturbances”, riots or false flags may well occur early next year. These event can be used to justify martial law.
    Thanks Jarhead
    Be aware and prepare
    “Terrorist Attack On America:
    http://www.magnifiedview.com

    Reply
  • stepabove November 2, 2012, 5:18 pm

    Did have trouble posting hope i get though this time

    Catch 22

    If you don’t put a fight when they kick in your door because it is a big mistake. thinking we will all laugh and have a beer afterwards when they figure out they screwed up.

    Only to realize they kicked in your door because you are one of those prepper terrosists. You have just given up all your weapons without one shot being fired. Hopefully they don’t take all the food you’ve been “hoarding “as well.

    between Polite and paraniod is a fine line

    Reply
    • riverrider November 3, 2012, 12:19 pm

      or worse, you realize too late that its a home invasion, not cops, and they won’t be leaving witnesses.

      Reply
  • Adam November 2, 2012, 5:46 pm

    Okay, I’ll bite. First off, I don’t really trust any news article about stuff like this because many times they only have one side of the story. That being said, if the article is correct then using a SWAT team in that instance is way overboard. If the search warrant is only to obtain a DNA sample, that’s insane to use a SWAT team.

    Secondly, in order to execute a search warrant for a person who is on a property in a residence, the police need probable cause to believe that person is present in the residence. If they don’t have that, then they made an illegal entry and are in violation of the case law surrounding search warrants. If they saw him enter the residence and that is his address, then they can enter the residence to execute the search warrant. If it is not his residence, then they also need a search warrant for the residence. If they had no probable cause to believe he was in the residence, again, the police are in violation.

    Thirdly, the police can’t do anything about a suspect using the wrong/old address. They do the best they can under the circumstances. No police officer wants to enter the wrong house doing something like this.

    Fourthly, your comment about using a SWAT team for a narcotics warrant are off the mark. Most drug dealers (and yes, someone growing weed in their house is a drug dealer) carry weapons and have even more weapons in their residence. I can’t tell you the number of rifles I’ve found in houses. While I support gun rights, I certainly don’t want to be the one entering a drug dealer’s house armed with a pistol while he has a rifle (AK47, SKS, etc).

    Lastly, any time a SWAT team or the like makes entry into the wrong house it is an absolute failure and should never happen. The officers should be held liable for their screw up. But it isn’t going to be every one, as they are acting in “good faith.” It’ll be the one who said “this is the house” who should be held liable.

    Hopefully you won’t take this as a flame. Though I’m sure I’ll get some in return for trying to explain police procedures to people who don’t want to hear it and think the police are evil since it fits in their narrative (I’m not including you in that JS).

    Reply
    • Jason November 3, 2012, 4:55 am

      You raised some good & valid points Adam. I think a huge problem is the magnification of the wrongful entries that have gone bad – not the erroneous ones where no shots were fired. Relatively speaking, I’ll bet the percentage is extremely low.

      This was part of the point I raised earlier. When the negative things become the extreme focus & overly exposed in an unfair & unbalanced light, people polarize. It has become very difficult to gain perspective when the negative gets extrapolated by the many wannabe newsmakers which, can include the MSM in order to increase rating value.

      I carefully watched a segment by the idiots calling themselves Young Turks regarding a dicey situation in Iraq & how they demonized the US military for unlawful killing in a clearly hostile & enemy controlled zone.

      There is NO accountability for these rogue armchair ‘reporters’ who post on Youtube, create a blog & develop a following to get their slice of public attention – it is almost to the point of madness.

      It really isn’t any wonder why the stress levels have increased dramatically across the board.

      Reply
      • T.R. November 4, 2012, 11:47 am

        Its also needed , what it tells you is that the people do NOT support what is going on over there and are tired of it . Same thing with the cops , they are getting tired of the over and excessive use of force and the abuse of power . Armchair rogue reporters are needed because the military and law enforcement are the first to cover up wrong doing of any kind , they attempt to justify it with left handed logic or outright lies . Free people need things brought out into the open . All the abuse of women in the military would be unknown to the public if these reporters went with the party line . My bitch is that nothing happens to the people that get caught doing this ….I think a few should be executed …….to make examples out of .

        Reply
    • Brad November 3, 2012, 1:33 pm

      A non-law enforcement perspective: I grew a pot plant once when I was younger. I have never sold drugs in my life. ;)

      Reply
    • Sebastion T. November 3, 2012, 4:46 pm

      You are correct. They should be held liable. But they aren’t.

      Reply
  • Brad November 2, 2012, 6:44 pm

    It seems to me we are in, and becoming more of a police state. In general, when the citizens fear the police, then you are in a police state. You bring up both sides of the story, which both have good points. I personally believe that knock and enters are wrong. Knock on the door, and serve your warrant. Don’t just bust in. Better yet, use your info, and pick the guy up on the way home from work. His children and spouse will not be affected, and there is a lot less chance of someone getting shot if they are not on their home turf. I personally believe it’s a show of force. These guys train for this, and can’t wait to do it. It’s like a quarter horse wanting to run around a track faster than the other horses. If you drive around in your cruiser looking for “perps”, “juveniles”, and “druggies”, and finally get a chance to “do your job”, then you tend to go overboard when sent into action. I speak from personal knowledge. I have 3 Aunts/Uncles who are officers and 2 of them talk about people being scum in general. They are they most racist, drug abusing, speeding limit breaking people I know. The third is still a control freak, but at least treats people as human beings. One of the Uncles got tired of chasing a “perp” and shot him in the back. He got in more trouble for having his girlfriend (yes, he was married) in the car than he did for shooting the guy. Sorry, but I have a bad taste for police.

    Reply
  • Robert November 2, 2012, 7:08 pm

    Personally, I think SWAT is overused. NO reason why most of their raids couldn’t be handled differently, and not many reasons to raid in the middle of the night when the risk of collateral damage (innocent children) is higher. Police are supposed to identify themselves, not kick in doors and point guns at people who may or may not be criminals. There are too many “wrong house” incidents to justify these techniques.

    There should also be mechanisms in place to verify the details, like addresses and targets (pictures would help here).

    Public places/hostage situations? Sure, except SWAT takes too long to organize and deploy most of the time. Regular patrol cops are first on the scene, and they should be trained and equipped to deal with dynamic situations. The North Hollywood shootout would have been over a lot sooner had LAPD has patrol rifles and a SOP that allowed them to deal with the situation.

    Reply
    • riverrider November 3, 2012, 12:28 pm

      no, the hollywood shootout would have ended quicker if the cops, which were well within handgun range, had the guts and skill to shoot the mf’s in the head. no rifle needed, just courage and not much of that as the perp reloaded several times. i’ve watched the tape, and yes i’ve been there,done that. nothing says “time to man-up” like an uzi being emptied at you from 25 yards away. those rifles further the militarization and will one day bite them in the butt.

      Reply
  • wilson November 2, 2012, 8:18 pm

    Unreal. I wish this wasn’t true, but it is. A confidential informant gave the police bad info and the SWAT team went to the wrong house.

    This seems to be happening more often lately.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/26083024.html?location_refer=Local%20+%20Metro:highlightModules:1

    Minneapolis police: A mistake, an apology and then medals

    Eight Minneapolis officers received medals in City Hall Monday for their valor in a botched raid that the city apologized for last year. That isn’t sitting well with the family shot at multiple times by the officers.

    “I’m shocked that they’re receiving awards for that night,” said Yee Moua. “My family is a mess right now. My [9-year-old] son, who saw the shooting, still has nightmares and has needed therapy. They’ve ruined a life, and I don’t understand why they would get rewarded for that.”

    The awards stemmed from a high-risk search in December. The eight officers — who had SWAT training — entered the house expecting to find a violent gang member. Instead, they found Vang Khang, a 35-year-old homeowner who thought he was being robbed. Khang shot through his bedroom door at the officers until he understood who they were.

    In the midst of the shootout were Moua, who is Khang’s wife, and their six children, who range in age from 3 to 15. Moua said her family has since abandoned the house and can no longer afford to keep it.

    Minneapolis police spokesman Sgt. William Palmer said Tuesday the department has acknowledged the raid was a mistake and has apologized to the family. But he said the officers “performed very bravely under gunfire and made smart decisions.”

    Minneapolis Police Chief Tim Dolan said that he knew giving the award might get negative attention but that “we’ve never not recognized an officer shot in the line of duty.”

    Three officers received shrapnel damage to body armor and their ballistic helmets, Palmer said.

    Dolan said he did not speak with the family prior to the award ceremony, but he did speak with Hmong community leaders in north Minneapolis who were “mostly understanding.”

    I can understand [Moua’s] feelings, but the officers didn’t make any mistakes and they were able to stop things from getting worse,” Dolan said. “Like the old maxim says, ‘You don’t punish your officers for the mistake of the general.'”

    ‘We almost died that night’

    Police said they acted on bad information from an informant, who reportedly was a victim of a crime at a house in the 1300 block of Logan Avenue N. Police said they had no reason to believe the information was inaccurate and they had the right address on the warrant, but the house wasn’t occupied by anybody they wanted.

    The raid was part of an investigation by the department’s Violent Offender Task Force, which typically goes after the most violent gang members and drug dealers. Officers had retrieved guns in searches connected with the case before the raid.

    According to police, officers entered the home without knocking — a standard procedure in cases where officers expected to find weapons — and called out, “Police!” as they searched the home’s first floor. They didn’t find anybody, so went to the second floor. At a small landing at the top of the stairs, they again shouted, “Police!”

    Shots then came through the walls and doors as officers searched two bedrooms, police said. It was Khang shooting from a third bedroom.

    Authorities said there were children in the other bedrooms, and the officers quickly realized there was a language barrier. The older children were able to communicate to their father that police were in the house and to stop shooting.

    “As soon as they started taking fire, [officers] got in front of the kids and used their body as a shield,” Palmer said. “They used great restraint and shot precisely at where the bullets were coming back from.”

    Moua disputed the police account.

    “They never identified themselves; we thought they were a whole bunch of drunk, crazy guys,” she said. “We didn’t know anything until my oldest son yelled, ‘Dad, it’s the police!'”

    She also said the officers did not try to protect her children, but rather hid themselves behind furniture and shot back indiscriminately. She said officers treated her and her husband roughly, and did not explain the situation after the two surrendered.

    “They stepped on my husband, and we kept asking, ‘Where are the bad guys?'” she said. “We were just trying to protect ours kids. We almost died that night.”

    Lawsuit against the city

    Sgt. Jesse Garcia said the city conducted an internal affairs investigation after the raid and the SWAT team was cleared of any wrongdoing. He said no other details were available because the investigation was still open.

    Casper Hill, a spokesman for the city of Minneapolis, said the city has reimbursed the Khang family $7,500 for “miscellaneous expenses.”

    The family’s lawyer, Thomas Heffelfinger, said that he has had ongoing conversations with the city attorney’s office and that there will be a lawsuit if they cannot reach a resolution.

    “They fired 22 rounds with 9 millimeter automatic weapons into a room with two adults and four children,” Heffelfinger said. “That’s not protecting kids. They were firing at a room they couldn’t see into. They fired with the intent to kill the person on the other side of the door.

    “To give these men awards for that behavior is nothing more than an attempt to sanitize their conduct.”

    Heffelfinger also said the family had lived at the house for four years and had no history of wrongdoing. He said police “failed to do their homework” and “acted outrageously once they got there.”

    Officers receiving medals of commendation included Sgt. Nicholas Torborg and officers Steven Blackwell, Matthew Kaminski, Ricardo Muro and Craig Taylor. Sgt. Michael Young and officers John Sheneman and Alan Williams received medals of valor.

    The terrorized family won a settlement after suing Minneapolis.

    The initial news report stated the swat shot 70 – 80 rounds and didn’t hit anyone (I have to ask – WTF were they shooting at and how could they be so bad that they could not hit anything?).

    Another news article stated that the cops, when leaving, told Khang that they would not prosecute him for shooting the cop if he didn’t file a lawsuit against them. The cop was not hurt badly because of the body armor.

    Reply
    • Jason November 3, 2012, 4:31 am

      Un-freaking believable. Disgusting to pin medals of valor on those armed bullies. They would probably give Lt. William Calley the Congressional Medal of Honor for the My Lai Massacre.

      Someday, SWAT will encounter the wrong innocent person(s) & fill up many of their own body bags.

      Reply
      • T.R. November 4, 2012, 11:50 am

        the sooner the better

        Reply
  • Joshua Hasbrouck November 2, 2012, 11:18 pm

    I have a friend who is on the SWAT team in a small city in Pennsylvania. I’ve heard several stories of the average engagments he’s participated in. From what I see and hear from him, these guys are highly trained, serious about their jobs, and very professional. In every profession from doctors to contractors there are “hacks”. And not only that but he gets called out at least every week for an incident and this is one small city in PA. Think about how many SWAT teams are called out every day across America. Incidents, mistakes, and poor judgement are going to happen. It’s just more high profile when these guys make mistakes. I believe, as a whole, these guys provide a necessary service to protect society from those who chose to act uncivilized. I carry a concealed weapon and try to provide safety for myself. But I agree Jarhead, i’d want these guys to have my back should I be in a situation where I’m outmanned and outgunned!

    Reply
  • cane November 3, 2012, 8:13 am

    I am surprised no one has mentioned the laws now in place to allow unwarranted search and seizure . The Patriot and and now the National Defense Authorization Act give law enforcement and military personnel carte blanch on entering, arresting, and terminating people deemed enemies of the state. They blur the line of law enforcement and military responsibility. These raids occurring now and the sniping incidents are just to acclimatized people into accepting a police state. Make no bones about it, we as Americans are slowing being pushed into a corner.

    Reply
  • noisynick November 3, 2012, 9:19 am

    Why the Masks? If everything is on the up and up. We need well trained law enforcement to combat elements of our society who Break the Laws. Definitely compensation should be applied to those affected if there found to be innocent and a Mistake having been made. Where does it say the law only applys to the common man. My experience with law enforcenment is quite limited I don’t break the law so not much of a need for interaction. The few experiences I have had led me to believe that a Great percentage of them are just like anyone else trying to do there job and make a living but the smaller percentage the one everyone seems to see in the limelight put the rest in a bad light.
    LEO need to police themselves harder than ever to get rid of that element that choose to manipulate things and give the larger percentage a bad name. The trust and support of the general public is the greatest asset they have abuse of such will only make there jobs harder and or more restrictive…

    Reply
  • Roger November 3, 2012, 11:22 am

    End the bogus “war on drugs” and most of this bs would go away.
    If someone wants to poison themselves, let them. Eventually darwinism takes over and we elimnate two problems.

    Reply
    • John November 4, 2012, 6:23 pm

      Until your 12 year old daughter is strung out on heroin. Then you get mad at the big bad drug dealers.

      Reply
      • Anonymous November 5, 2012, 3:06 pm

        if it were legal, there wouldn’t be a market for big bad drug dealers.

        Reply
        • Jason November 7, 2012, 5:59 pm

          Yes, but the drug use problem would remain & probably get worse.

          The big bad legalized drug dealers would be the same ones we have now – pharmaceutical companies.

          Reply
  • Adam November 3, 2012, 12:25 pm

    Anyone who believes that SWAT team members or cops in general want to attack people or shoot someone by mistake is uneducated and extremely biased. Does being a police officer change your worldview and make you jaded? Oh yes. Keep in mind that 95% of the people police deal with are the worst our society has to offer.

    Do I think the Patriot Act and NDAA are an overreach? Yes I do. But those are not enforced at the local level by police. Any time a police officer makes an arrest, they still have to show probable cause in line with the 4th Amendment. If they do not, they have a major problem. Same thing with a search warrant. They don’t go approve it themselves, there is judicial review. If the Magistrate isn’t good enough, then that needs to be addressed. If a cop lies on a search warrant, arrest warrant, arrest affidavit, then they have committed a 42 USC 1983 violation.

    When SWAT makes entry into a residence on a search warrant execution, you will always hear them yelling over and over “police” or “police, search warrant.” This is due to auditory exclusion in a stressful situation. For the reader who brought up the Jose Guerena thing, you are wrong. Watch the video, that was NOT a “no knock” warrant. They knocked, they used their sirens for about 30 seconds and then made entry.

    Also, in order to execute a search warrant, it MUST be read once the scene is secure and before the search begins. This is true, even in an empty house. You read the search warrant to the empty house before any searching can be done. You read the search warrant to a car if you have a warrant for a car, etc. If the officers fail to do so, then the warrant was not properly executed and any evidence obtained will be inadmissible in court.

    Also, in the case of a mistaken residence, the police will pay for the damages to the residence. Emotional damages would have to be obtained by suing. But the actual physical damage to the residence will always be covered. It will not be covered if it was the correct address (murder suspect stays at parents house, but isn’t there at the time).

    Reply
    • Brad November 3, 2012, 1:51 pm

      Quote from Adam : “Does being a police officer change your worldview and make you jaded? Oh yes. Keep in mind that 95% of the people police deal with are the worst our society has to offer”

      Considering probably 95% of the encounters an officer has is someone that was going 10 mph over the speed limit or didn’t make a complete stop, then the conclusion that “95% of them are the worst our society has to offer” sounds like police action justification talk.

      Reply
      • John November 4, 2012, 6:25 pm

        “considering probably 95% of the encounters an officer has is someone that was going 10 mph over the speed limit or didn’t make a complete stop, then the conclusion that “95% of them are the worst our society has to offer” sounds like police action justification talk.”

        You really have no idea what cops do on a daily basis. Seriously, you need to take a ride along in a large city, your eyes are wide shut. Most cops do very little traffic.

        Reply
      • Cathleen June 23, 2016, 9:31 pm

        J’en suis a mon second lissage bresilien mais il faut etre realiste, l&f;e1782f#et ne dure pas au dela de 2 mois.Le rendu est genial et c’est le seul traitement qui permet de se debarasser des frisottis mais a moins d’avoir les moyens c’est quand meme pas le truc le plus rentable.Cela dit j’ai jamais rien eu de comparable pour dompter mes frisottis.

        Reply
  • riverrider November 3, 2012, 12:34 pm

    every swat action i’ve seen on film the whole freaking team is yelling incoherently. how are we supposed to hear “police “in all of that. and what else would bad guys say but “police”. we have a couple home invasions a week here now, they don’t even make the headlines any more.

    Reply
    • Adam November 3, 2012, 12:37 pm

      Most home invasions are drug related. I have been to 2 home invasions in 5 years that weren’t. One was a jewelry dealer who kept the jewelry with them, the other was a rape. That’s it. The other 100+ home invasions were ALL drug related. People ripping off drug dealers.

      And I have only been to 2-3 home invasions (of drug dealers) where they yelled police. But the drug dealers inside figured it out pretty quickly they weren’t the police because of how they were dressed.

      Reply
      • Brad November 3, 2012, 1:54 pm

        My Dad’s home has been robbed twice. He doesn’t even drink beer. I have a hard time believing that many are drug related. Maybe people stealing stuff to get money for drugs, but not to get drugs or drug money directly. Again, police action justification talk.

        Reply
        • Adam November 9, 2012, 3:41 pm

          There is a difference between a home invasion and a burglary.

          Reply
      • riverrider November 4, 2012, 8:47 am

        the invaders around here have figured out that granny and grandpa, and illegals, don’t trust the banks anymore and stash their cash on site. we have about one a week of this type. we too have drug theft invasions and a few “snatch” types where the guy owed them money or some other beef. most times everybody makes it out okay but there have been a few that lost their lives, sometimes because they knew the perp. its sad someone would set up their own grand parents.

        Reply
  • Ray November 3, 2012, 6:14 pm

    Here is the one thing all of y’all missed, If a cop Or group of cops burns your mother alive, Gang rapes your 6 year old. shoots your wife for fun or robs you at gun point. You can in no way defend them ,Or yourself. To do so is to be killed. Murdered on the spot. If you are not killed there and then. You WILL be taken to a dungon ,given a phony “day in court”. and sent to death row. YOU AND I HAVE NO RIGHTS. Get over that BS right now. The police are the enforcers for your slavemasters. They can,will and do, with you as they wish. When they wish. However they wish. We live or die at there whim. AND. Short of hunting down and killing Everyone connected to government ,there is not one damn thing we can do about it. Deny this any way you wish, then try saying NO to the next cops who stops you.

    Reply
    • extremesgs November 14, 2012, 5:41 pm

      dude, are you serious?

      I’m one of “them.” If i saw anything remotely resembling what you described, I’d take them out myself. Plenty of non LE friends of mine would as well.

      I’m thinking someone watches a little too much TV… or not enough of the news; cops are being prosecuted for stupid shit all the way up to brutal shit. Sorry you’re so disillusioned, but man, you’re way off.

      lastly, you don’t get to compare your initial scenario with “sayin NO to the next cops who stops you.” You really think disagreeing with the reason for a stop is right up there with challenging someone who “burns your mother alive, Gang rapes your 6 year old. shoots your wife for fun or robs you at gun point.” A bit over the top…

      Reply
  • Anonymous November 4, 2012, 3:26 pm

    It doesn’t help that our goverment is giving guns to our enemy and yet nothing is done to them. We are just supposed to accept it and not require any justice because “I didn’t know” covers all the fault.Where does the accountibility come in to play.

    Reply
  • K R November 6, 2012, 5:50 pm

    “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” Now whowuzit said THAT?

    Reply
    • Jason November 7, 2012, 12:55 pm

      Ranger Man said it.

      Reply
  • Jack of All Trades November 12, 2012, 6:36 pm

    My response to police/SWAT. If you feel you can’t get the job done without all your tacti-cool BS feel free to resign.

    Reply
  • Jack of All Trades November 12, 2012, 6:37 pm

    My response to police/SWAT. If you feel you can’t get the job done without all your tacti-cool BS then you shouldn’t be in that line of work to begin with. Feel free to resign.

    Reply
  • Survival Samurai November 14, 2012, 3:06 am

    Seems like the S in SWAT has been replaced… From Special to Standard…

    Reply
  • extremesgs November 14, 2012, 5:26 pm

    ho hum… how do i keep this short, not lose my temper :-) and remain objective…? here goes!

    First, one must not judge the whole by the actions of the few; these mistaken address/person instances of people getting killed is horrible. BUT… its bad info/intel. and quite honestly, everyone probably THOUGHT it was good intel at the time. To second another comment, po-po don’t just kick down doors for semi-good reasons… its because a judge signed off on it, or there was some sort of immenent threat.

    Second, one of the reasons for going after that fly with the .44 is to show the fly an overwhelming force; its part deterrent. A bad dude has shown time and again that he has no fear of taking on a couple uniformed officers.

    With that, there are adequate resources in place should it go south. its called preparing… this place should be familiar with the concept. Be prepared for what MIGHT come, what COULD come, and for as many CONTINGENCIES as could come with same. That is not meant to be snide, its meant to draw a parallell.

    Granted, the issue addressed in the article was about the ability to indescriminately kick in doors with little supporting info. Quite frankly, the fear of “…the idea that a team of masked men can barge into my home at any time, kick my ass, and put my family under the gun simply because they’re the police and have a semi-good reason…” is a bit ridiculous, for lack of better wording. Its rare that the accidental ID (house/person) happens. but like everything else in LE, THAT is what makes news, and makes it BIG. There are countless SWAT ops going on daily that don’t make anything beyond the local news…

    Lastly, if there’s any question(s) about what gets SWAT into your house to go through your stuff for (insert reason here), go down to your local courthouse to find out… the “Rules” of the game aren’t a secret; you need permission, probable cause, or exigency to enter a home like that. We as a free society agree to abide by the laws of the land on which we live… if an investigator goes to a judge and gets permission to get a team and hit the house, you don’t go bitching to the team that its their fault for hitting the wrong house! They’re usually there at the request of someone else. Ever hear “don’t shoot the messenger?” (c’mon, that was a half-hearted attempt at humor…). There was clearly a breakdown somewhere. find where the breakdown is and try to address it (clearly, before, not after…)

    One thing you do see out there is the “task force” concept… those guys hitting a house is usually way different. their training is not the same as actual SWAT. I know of several cases that have gone bad from TFs hitting a house… they weren’t supported by the “specialists” as they should have been.

    Apologies for any “holes” in some of the explanations… can’t give away any trade secrets.

    Now, my personal, “devil’s advocate” view on it… there are very few full time teams out there. Most are department teams, regional teams, county teams, etc. With that, I don’t feel that “part time” teams should be doing super-specialized work. not at the rate that is the norm anyway. You don’t send a team of National Guard guys in to do a SEAL, etc. job. You send the ones whose sole purpose it is to do it. And to compliment the article, you do so to ensure the lowest risk of death or injury… because that’s their job. their bread and butter. Its what they do day in and day out.

    Reply
  • extremesgs November 14, 2012, 5:35 pm

    so i went back and read a good amt of the replies… MAN, that turned into “let’s shit on the cops” day…

    Kinda disapointing guys. The picture being painted of the Gestapo here in the US is way off base.

    If you’re that stuck on the idea that “the man” is all bad, and that police in your area are nothing but a bunch of law breaking, baby killing, above the law crazies, maybe you should turn off the cop shows and go ask to do a ride along at your local PD….

    I’ll warn you though… i know more guys who are scared to DO their job, for ffear of lawsuits, than those who feel the need to trample on the constitution, like those being portrayed in the replies.

    Reply
  • Jarhead Survivor November 14, 2012, 9:12 pm

    Hi Extremesgs – I agree that some of the commenters here are over the top, but as to the fact that swat isn’t being used a little – shall we say over zealously – in some instances is denying the truth.

    Check it out:

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/swat-team-throws-flashbangs-raids-wrong-home-due-to-open-wifi-network/

    http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/SWAT-Team-Raids-Wrong-Home–173164961.html

    http://www.examiner.com/article/duncan-shot-eurie-stamps-accidentally-da-says-no-accountability-necessary

    http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7465.10;wap2

    http://governmentabuse.info/reports/view/1984

    And on and on..

    This whole site is devoted to botched raids: http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

    Look, my point is this: the longer we have these special teams in place the more this kind of thing is going to happen. I think the militarization of the police is a mistake. As you can see from the comments above it’s already turned a fair amount of the population against the police. I think part of that reason is that quite often after these raids have proven to be disastrous with people killed or injured or maybe even pets getting shot the investigation shows no wrong doing on the part of the police. Like someone said above, if there’s a botched raid someone’s ass should fry. Why? Because if there was some accountability then maybe the police would think a little harder or maybe do a little more detective work before sending in eight armed men against an old lady and her husband who are peacefully watching tv not knowing that in five minutes he’s going to be dead from a heart attack. Goddamn right someone should be held accountable. Some innocent persons life just ended because someone, somewhere, didn’t a thorough enough job making sure they were going into the right home.

    I’m not attacking every day LEOs and I’m not attacking SWAT teams, what I am against is the near everyday use of SWAT in situations where it’s not needed.

    Once again I say, “If you’re philosophy is, ‘Ya gotta scramble a few eggs to make an omelet’ clearly you’ve never been the egg.”

    There are even a few of your brother LEOs on here that have agreed with this. Maybe where you operate they have good control over their SWAT teams, intelligence, and whatever else goes into proper use of these teams; however, that clearly isn’t the case in many other places. Until it is my opinion on this matter won’t change.

    Reply
  • extremesgs November 15, 2012, 3:00 pm

    Oh, I don’t disagree that there have been cases of improper use of SWAT, overzealous teams/use, or overzealous officers… but again, if you have someone acting outside the norm, it’s still not right to say that “all” fall into the category.

    overzealous SWAT guys are being overzealous. ALL SWAT guys/teams aren’t overzealous… and especially not just becuase someone else is.

    No one would look at this quote: “inner city youths ages 12-16 have shown a dramatic increase in violent crimes in the City of _____ since last year” and then say that all inner city kids are violent. The blanket, the generalization, and the stereotyping… those are what I’m against.

    I’m not blind to the fact that there have been botched raids, improper use of teams, and overzealousness on the part of teams, but I stand by saying that the “majority” of call outs and team use is done properly and without incident, or “wrongdoing.”

    I believe someone else made the comment about civilians being looked at as guiltly until proven innocent… yet the masses here are looking at *all* SWAT teams and use as a big no-no. That’s hypocritcal. If someone screws up on the raid and there’s bad results, i agree someone should pay. But, should the person or team who simply has the same job be accountable? Are all teams now guilty? I think not.

    Reply
  • Jarhead Survivor November 15, 2012, 4:34 pm

    And that’s what I’m saying. In the post I don’t say all SWAT teams are out killing innocent people. What I did say was I don’t like the fact that it could possibly happen (it’s a slim chance I hope) to me as I’m sitting home watching tv.

    I can’t speak for the other commenters, but I’ve never had a bad experience with a SWAT team. And I hope I never do for that matter.

    Although I can say that I’ve had dealings with cops who seemed to be trying to bust my chops for no reason I could identify other than I had a brake light out or whatever. But it’s also fair to report that when I’ve dealt with the Maine State Police they’ve always been absolutely professional.

    I guess the bottom line for me is that everyone was held accountable for their actions (that’s the first thing I learned in bootcamp) then incidents like these would probably happen a lot less.

    Reply
  • extremesgs November 15, 2012, 6:52 pm

    Agreed.

    Hell, i wish there were more indivitual accountability where i WORK… less headaches for me! :-)

    Good discussion!

    FWIW, i’m just south of you….

    Reply
    • Jason November 17, 2012, 4:05 pm

      If there was more individual accountability across the board we would all have less headaches! :-)

      Reply
  • Jarhead Survivor November 15, 2012, 9:52 pm

    Oh yeah! What state?

    Reply
  • Josua Smitherman August 16, 2015, 10:26 pm

    Don’t know if you are still checking these comments but only a month ago a wrong house was targeted in GA which led to the death of a sleeping 2 year old baby because she was hit with a flash grenade.

    Reply
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