SHTF guns on a budget

A few days ago, a guy at work came up to me and asked me for a bit of firearms help. He told me he’d saved about $1000, and was looking to get a handgun and a long gun plus a few accessories to set himself up for a SHTF type situation. He didn’t want junk, either, but he did realize he’d have to pay for good stuff that would last. (I love hearing that!) So I thought for a bit and told him what would work well for his situation…I’ll list that later.

 

But I’m sure for many people, getting started with firearms that will provide security and provide food when they are on a ramen-noodle budget is a bit daunting. After all, keeping the bills paid and the lights and heat on HAS to be the first priority, before you can start prepping for a situation that may never rear its head. Putting enough money aside to buy quality firearms can and will be hard if you simply don’t have a huge income. On a personal level, when I was a young single buck with nobody but myself to provide for and a great income from a contractor job, I was luckily able to secure some great firearms for myself, and hold onto most of them through the metamorphosis that brought me to my current state of two kids, wife, a mortgage, a dog, and two car payments. I was lucky, and was able to obtain 99% of the stuff I needed before the money crunch hit. People just starting out on their own, or suffering from the current economic hardships will be in a completely different spot. I am also going to assume that people may not have much in the way of firearms knowledge to go along with a curtailed budget. We’re starting from scratch here.

 

Let’s assume you ate PB&J every day for several months, sold a few unneeded items, and were able to scratch together the aforementioned 1000 dollars, a budget that must purchase one handgun and one long gun of good quality, and any accessories such as holsters, slings, etc., that you may need to get you through a crisis. For this exercize, we will not include ammunition in the overall cost, as that will vary widely based on what you prefer for ammo types and what is available. Let’s get started.

 

What are we looking for here?

To begin, let’s define what, theoretically, would define a high-quality SHTF gun. People automatically think an AK- or AR- type variant with doodads and options galore. Yes, under many situations, a high-capacity semi-automatic is ideal, but not if we’re on a strict budget…an entry level AR-15 will easily chew through our $1000 maximum without any room for a handgun or accessories. So that’s out. What we’re looking for will have the following qualities:

 

-Availability. The guns we’re looking for will be very common and easy to find. Obscurity is a problem in a Worst-Case Scenario. Yeah, that pre-war commercial Mauser sporter in 9.3×62 may be beautiful and seriously cool, but if you can’t find ammunition for it anywhere and no spare parts, it’s a tent stake. A gun that will be found in police cars, gun shops, and other people’s hands will have a ready supply of scrounged ammunition, magazines, and spare parts if needed. Buying a gun in a common caliber may put you in the line to get ammo everybody else wants, but it’ll also mean that caliber will be easy to find later down the road.

 

-Ruggedness. Flimsy shit won’t hack it. There, I said it. A good rifle/pistol combo should be as close to impervious to the elements as possible, able to survive being dropped with no major harm done, and live through being a tool. it may live its life in a holster or slung over a pack. It needs to work when you need it most after being subjected to wear and tear. Military-tested firearms are a big bonus here; you know they’ll live through what you can throw at them. A rugged gun won’t need as much of a spare parts stash as well, something to consider if you’re not mechanically inclined, or willing to fix stuff.

 

Probably not needed.

-Simplicity. The more complicated a gun is, with levers, switches, battery-powered lights and lasers, added-on unnecessary junk, and needless intricacy, well, is the more that can break or leave you fumbling with accessories when you need it. The KISS (Keep it Simple, Stupid) mantra will serve you well. If you don’t NEED it (I’m looking at you, person who thinks laser sights are really cool), don’t get it. Gadgets add weight that you’ll be lugging in addition to your GHB/BOB. Simple guns will also be easier to operate under duress…something not to be taken lightly.

 

So, within those above parameters, what are some good suggestions/combos? Well, here’s what I recommended for the fellow in the beginning who asked me what I thought, and I think it’s a great combo for most, if not all situations. I know many will roll your eyes and go, “oh, brother!” but the fact is that this combo fulfills all of the above requirements, and will (theoretically) serve you well when needed.

 

Combo #1: Glock 17/19 or 22/23 and Remington 870 Express combo

 

 

Why it works: The Glock may be the most ubiquitous pistol of our time (sorry, 1911 guys.). It is everywhere. Parts and accessories are everywhere. And even though it has the aesthetics of Liza Minelli after being run over with a dump truck, it works. And it works well. The pistols are incredibly simple and tough, and easy to find in gun shops and via private sales. The high capacity of the magazines means that only a couple need to be carried for most daily missions, saving weight on you and minimizing accessories needed, saving money. Get one in 9mm or .40 S&W, as the pistols are smaller in frame and more common than the .45s and 10mm. There are no levers, no crazy safeties. Point and shoot. They are as accurate as you need them to be.  Alternate choice: Smith & Wesson M&P series. (I personally prefer the M&P pistols, but they’re not quite as common.) Price: About $550 new, $400 +/- used. Go used, look in the police trade-in market.

 

The Remington 870 is quite simply the most-used, highly tested pump-action shotgun of all time. Literally millions of them are out there, because they work. Simple, with large, rugged parts, they don’t die. Any police officers who have seen what these guns go through in daily use as patrol car long guns can attest to this. They are easy to accessorize if needed, but they really don’t need much. When you look for one, try to find a used combo as pictured above; they have the rifle-sighted slug barrel and the longer bird barrel, making the gun versatile enough to shoot slugs accurately at 100 yards or wingshooting game birds. Price for the combo new: About $500. Used for combo: $300. Sometimes used or police department trade-ins can be found for the $200 mark with the slug barrel, but they’ll be a little on the “previously enjoyed” side, meaning they may need to have springs and small parts replaced. But it’s a screamin’ deal. Tip: look for the synthetic-stocked version for extra toughness. 12 gauge is the caliber to go with, 20 gauge if you’re female or smaller-framed.  Alternate choice: Mossberg 500/590. They have dual extractors which is a biggie, but aluminum receivers, which I’m not too fond of…but it’s been chosen by the USMC as the combat shotgun of choice, so who am I to argue?

 

I think the above combo is a great one, and one that I would gladly field myself, knowing I had something versatile and powerful enough to do whatever I needed when the chips were down. Add in a Blackhawk! SERPA holster or similar kydex holster ($40-50 new) and dual magazine pouch ($30 new) for the pistol, and a good nylon web sling (about $10-15) for the shotgun, and brothers and sisters, you have everything you need for under the $1000 budget, if you were careful and bought used.

 

Speaking of buying used, the internet is your friend. Gunbroker, Auction Arms, GunsAmerica, and similar online auction sites are excellent ways to find exactly what you’re looking for. Online Facebook groups, local news paper classified, local gun shops, and private sales are all the way to go to find what you’re looking for on the cheap. Be dilligent, and you’ll find good stuff for not much money. I promise.

 

Other guns I considered for the fellow, all of which will serve somebody well (some better than others depending on situations) and all of which can be found for $400 each when buying used. Happy hunting!

 

-Remington 700/Winchester 70/Ruger 77/Savage 110 in .308 Winchester or .30-06

-Smith & Wesson Models 66, 65, 19,13, 10, 64, 17, 18, 14, 15.

-Ruger Speed-Six, GP101, SP101

-Ruger P85 (ugly, but tanks)

-H&R Topper/158 break-open: (special mention and worth looking into: high quality, very inexpensive, multiple calibers/gauges!)

-Savage Model 24/42 – break-open combination guns, meaning rifled barrel over a shotgun barrel. Another excellent way to go.

 

What else you got out there? What would you buy if you had nothing but $1000 and the world as we know it was ending next week?

 

Stay safe!

-TRW

 

 

 

  • j.r. guerra in s. tx. December 4, 2013, 6:40 am

    I think you definitely have the handgun correct – Glocks are darn fine weapons and accessories for them are very common. An alternative – the police trade-in .357 / .38 Special revolvers, some real bargains there.

    Shotgun – you nailed that too, the Remington and Mossbergs are always mentioned as a top choices . The single shots are sleepers – about as easy to teach functions for inexperienced shooters. One bad feature – their lightweight construction gives them pretty high recoil.

    Rifles – 30-30 lever guns can be found for good prices (used) and the ammunition for them is pretty commonly found as well. .357 lever gun is also worth thought, but their price is higher, you are doing good if you find that for less than $400 where I live. No extra magazines to buy and doesn’t gain a lot of attention from the ‘ban all black rifles’ folks either. The Marlin 336 is easily taken down for compact storage. And young adults and even children can shoot them without a lot of fuss.

    .22 rimfire – got to have at least one.

    Reply
    • poorman December 4, 2013, 9:42 am

      I am with you on the .22. I fell it is a MUST have in a SHTF situation. You have a much larger chance of needing to supply food than needing to protect yourself. I agree a shotgun (I have 2 500′s ) can supply food but if you have ever sot a squirrel or small bird with a shotgun you know there’s not much eatin left.

      Reply
      • Steve December 4, 2013, 11:47 am

        Another rifle to consider is the Mosin Nagant cal 7.62x44mm. Ammo a plenty and the rifles can be bought for less than $200. Shop tho. Some are worn out so pick a good one. I’ve seen them accurate to 600 yds and since they were a military rifle, they’re tough too. Also consider a Ruger 10/22. Lots of options with this gun as they now make a pistol version and a “takedown” model. Moss/Rem is the only way to go for a shotgun. Benelli’s are nice but expensive and hard to find. Glock pistols are always a good chouice but consider a Ruger Mark series .22 Cheap to shoot and you can carry a lot of ammo to go with a .22 rifle. Good luck!

        Reply
  • Road Warrior December 4, 2013, 7:42 am

    Yes, all excellent choices!! Good call on the leverguns.

    Other honorable mentions from the military surplus market include the SKS, SMLE Enfield (especially the ishapur .308s, and many of the commercially converted 98 Mauser surplus guns in .308.

    Reply
  • chilichef December 4, 2013, 8:44 am

    Winchester 1200/1300′s can usually be found for less than $400, sometimes a lot less. And don’t forget “generic” shotguns made by name manufacturers; Western Auto “Revelation” pumps were generally Mossberg made, and Sears/Montgomery Ward were typically made by Winchester or Remington; though you should double check the model number in a cross reference guide to make sure it was common model; only downside is some of the older ones may not take 3 inch shells. Nonetheless, a “Sears” shotgun typically sells at a discount over it’s name brand equivalent.

    Reply
  • Steve suffering in NJ December 4, 2013, 9:18 am

    Agree 100 percent glock and 870. Tight budget id add a mosin nagant. Cabelas has them 159.00 regularly

    Reply
    • chilichef December 4, 2013, 9:48 am

      The only problem with the Mosin is that it’s not common caliber, at least not as common as a lot of others. For the money I’d say you’re better off with used, “cosmetically impaired” 30-30 lever, you can usually pick them up for $200 or less, particularly if you go the Sears or Montgomery Ward marked ones (which were typically made by either Winchester or Marlin). And 30-30 is about as common a caliber as you can find in this country.

      Reply
      • Steve December 4, 2013, 10:59 am

        J&G has Mosins from $99 – $139. And tins of 440 for $89. Stock up on a lifetime supply of ammo and it doesn’t matter if it’s hard to find.

        Reply
        • Steve suffering in NJ December 4, 2013, 7:00 pm

          Steve

          With you on stocking up. Do people think because there ammo is common it will be available post SHTF?
          Never understood that mindset. I guess you would have a better chance finding a box of 3030 vs 762×54 laying around I get that argument. But I’m certainly not planning a run to my local gun shop post an event with expectations of finding ammo.

          Reply
          • Glacialhills December 7, 2013, 9:06 pm

            correct and .22 is about the most common round going and right now is as scarce as hens teeth, but can still find 7.62 x 54R even now. Go figure. just buy a few couple of tins of surplus and dont worry about finding more.

          • Steve suffering in NJ December 7, 2013, 11:09 pm

            Here too with the .22. To that point, during the major ammo shortages a few years ago I couldn’t find common calibers. No 9mm, 45, .223, 308. Some .40, plenty of 357/38, 270, 410 762×54.
            Sometimes having the odd duck caliber isn’t such a bad thing.

  • Ray December 4, 2013, 9:30 am

    I think you are spot on in all but one way; I think that HI CAP-semiauto weapons are the worst possible choice for a SHTF / survival weapon. Here’s why; It is not possible to keep any gas operated semiauo in service WHEN the springs /pins/mags give out. Without a working manufacturing base modern weapons are rendered unserviceable very quickly. (This is why the current wars in the mid east need constant resupply) The “Modern” weapon that is so “reliable” now is only so because it has an unlimited supply chain behind it. “Modern” “assault weapons” (AR -AK or any of the current GEN. of plastic -fantastic) were meant to be “combat disposable” THE PLAN has allways been to use them up and through them away , then go buy a new on with tax money. THEY WERE NEVER MEANT TO LAST. The lifespan of modern weapons has far more to do with the workmen who build them , than it dose with any “goodness” in the weapon. Your budding “prepper” need to start out with weapons that will keep working for generations. Then buy LOT’S and LOT’S and LOT’S of ammo, Then get into reloading.(and fanatical gun care) They need to buy spare parts and learn to install them. Most of all they need to NOT “fall in love” with one firearm as a be-all or end-all. They are only machines and sooner than later WILL break.

    Reply
    • Road Warrior December 4, 2013, 10:11 am

      Very, very well put sir. But I think that the market saturation of something like a Glock will ensure a supply of spare magazines for a long, long time after a Worst Case Scenario….however, revolvers and fixed-magazine guns are a 100% solid answer to the problem.

      Reply
      • Ray December 5, 2013, 5:26 am

        My concern is not so much for magazines as it is for springs. The coil spring (and to a lesser extent the stamped sheet steel part) have all ways been the weak point in the semi-auto handgun and rifle. Without a working manufacturing base, parts will quickly disappear or become crushingly expensive. Older weapons will be in great demand as a parts reserve. This isn’t even the outcome of a total crash and TEOTWAWKI . This could easily be the outcome of the UN small arms and parts ban or a global depression. Americans have become grossly dependent on global weapons and weapons parts importation . Cut that supply chain and we are very quickly reduced to revolvers and 1911s (just look at how fast the SKS 45 came and went as a “cheep” rifle)

        Reply
  • Leon Pantenburg December 4, 2013, 9:51 am

    Here are my choices. You didn’t mention a .22, so here’s what I use.
    http://www.survivalcommonsense.com/the-top-three-firearms-choices-for-beginner-outdoorspeoplefeed/

    Interesting topic!

    Leon

    Reply
  • chilichef December 4, 2013, 9:58 am

    22′s good. I know people like 10/22 but they can be a bit pricey on the used market; there’s tons of used Marlin/Glenfield model 60′s out there, nearly always marked at $100 or less, I’ve picked them up for as low as $60. By and large they are reliable; I’ve heard some people complain about extraction problems, but honestly, every single one I”ve had has worked flawlessly once I get it home, disassemble it and THOROUGHLY clean it and reassemble; people put literally thousands of rounds thru these things and never clean them. There’s guides to disassembly out there and it’s fairly straightforward.

    Reply
    • Steve December 4, 2013, 11:55 am

      The Marlin/Glenfield Model 60′s are GREAT rifles. There is an aftermarket company that makes a bullpup stock for them to shorten them down.

      Reply
  • Road Warrior December 4, 2013, 10:07 am

    While I understand the logic behind the “off-brand” guns, I don’t endorse them for two reasons: quality and quantity. The guns are cheaper for a reason: they are made with lower-quality components. If you don’t believe me, go to a big-volume used gun shop and compare a Winchester 1894 of pretty much any vintage and a, say, Ted Williams or J.C. Higgins knock-off. Parts are cheaper, QC is lowered, and I’d rather shell out the extra dough for the real deal.

    Also, many of these off brand guns are copies of guns that are no longer in production, and therefore the parts supply is dwindling quickly. This is why I push something like an 870….parts are everywhere, cheap, and almost always of a known excellent quality…and you can scrounge them from PD armories, “battle drops ” or the like.

    Reply
    • riverrider December 4, 2013, 7:50 pm

      idk, sometimes you’re just paying for the name. i’ve built and run no-name ar’s for 30 years and never had a failure related to quality. a nice one can be put together today for 500 bucks. toss in a ruger mk3 or such, setting on go.

      Reply
  • irishdutchuncle December 4, 2013, 1:52 pm

    the molded KYDEX holsters make me a little nervous. all the pictures I’ve seen of them show an imprint of the trigger, inside the imprint of the trigger guard. it just doesn’t look right…

    Reply
  • irishdutchuncle December 4, 2013, 2:39 pm

    I would help him find a good used 12ga pump shotgun. but then make sure he had a lump of cash for emergencies, before moving foreward.
    (do as I say, not as I’ve done) he should keep $800-$1000 cash, secured at home, before buying anything else. he should then get a solid, major brand handgun, again with your helpful input if needed.
    the choice between concealability and all-out power may have to be made. (my choice was a beat-up but usable S&W 65, but YMMV)

    Reply
    • irishdutchuncle December 4, 2013, 2:57 pm

      Ruger “Security-Six”, 4″ stainless would be where I’d start looking…
      if my ego would allow it, I would go and get some professional instruction, and then try out the Glock and a few other contenders at the range.

      Reply
      • chilichef December 4, 2013, 3:05 pm

        Security 6 is great if you can find one, but at least locally they are quite rare on used market, particularly in Stainless, and tend to be just a bit pricey. Various Smith 357s are a lot more common, and usually somewhat cheaper.

        Reply
        • irishdutchuncle December 4, 2013, 3:23 pm

          thanks chilichef. I wasn’t taking price or availability into account. (although I should have)

          Reply
  • Irish-7 December 4, 2013, 4:06 pm

    If I were starting from scratch and only had a grand to start my survival battery, I would probably purchase 3 firearms: .12 GA Shotgun, .22 LR and a pistol (automatic for urban, revolver for rural). In the GunsAmerica email today there were the following weapons that would fit my criteria: Mossberg 500 -$250, Remington 870 (new) – $350, (used)-$250, Ruger 10/22 & Marlin 60 – $225, Henry AR-7 – $230, Taurus PT745 – $450, 840 – $400, 609 – $335. Also, there was a Judge for $485.

    Reply
  • Michael December 4, 2013, 5:42 pm

    I completely dig my Ruger SP101 W/ 4.2″ barrel, but don’t know about fitting one into a under 1k combo-pack. I’d also go with a smaller handgun than a G17 as it will be easier to carry on a day to day bases and easier to conceal if the need arises.

    Reply
  • papaswamp December 4, 2013, 6:55 pm

    ruger mini-14 or mini-30. ruger sp 101 (357).
    mini14and mini 30 can be found for cheap. effective range is more than double the shotgun (100m or less). plenty of after market accessories. good firepower and rate of fire.
    sp101 357 is compact, extremely durable and fires 38 spc or 357 mag. .

    Reply
  • Tolik December 4, 2013, 6:57 pm

    Ruger mini 30 , or an AK , both use the same round . The ruger however is smaller , very clean and light weight . Another one if you want a heavier hitter is the FAL and all its variants , its a battle tested and proven weapon in 308 that served NATO countries for decades . They can be had for $800- 2300 depending on how tricked out they are . Taurus PT92 , its basically a Barretta copy and is actually a good weapon . The PT99 is the same gun but with different rear sights , very good , cheap 9mm $400-450 for a reliable full frame pistol . Many things out there , just do your homework .

    Reply
  • Steve (from the Cape) December 4, 2013, 9:12 pm

    The used 870′s police models on the Cape that I’ve seen are all big $: 600 – 800 used. But I do really like them. For $1,000 I’d pick an S&W model 28 357 mag / 38 spec – cheap though prices are increasing. They are built like a tank! TRW had a post on SHTF revolvers a while ago, I believe. I also like the idea of a 357 lever action but they are used they seem very rare and prices here are through the roof. I also have a Remington 45 in stainless but it is way too expensive for this budget and I like the reliability of the #28 for SHTF situations. Rounding out: a used Mossy 500 (or new) and a Ruger 10/22 TD. There should still be still $’s left over for ammo.
    irishdutchuncle : I totally agree with the concept of a supply of $ $’s in reserve!
    chilichef & Steve: I have a Model 60 Glenfield that I really like but I can only get about 300 rounds through it b/4 cleaning or malfunctions rapidly appear so to I’ve been leaning toward my 10/22. The Ruger seems to go on forever. The Model 60 is my favorite 22 shooter though.

    Reply
    • Ray December 5, 2013, 2:51 pm

      OMG! prices are hi there! I have a 1967- 870 wingmaster ,Ex Miami/ Dade PD.I paid 225$ for less than two years ago. Its in really good shape too. The model 19-4 setting next to me is in 98% shape and I only gave 400$ for it. (also a PD trade in)

      Reply
  • Jonathon Harper December 5, 2013, 5:01 pm

    I am middle aged and in my younger years I owned the SKS’s and such but over time I began to see them for what they were and sold them all. To me if faced with a SHTF situation the “plan” is more important than all the fancy military style guns on the market. Throughout history many nations have risen and fallen and one thing stands out. The meek and humble are always the ones that survive and start anew. I went a different route. I bought two inexpensive Marlin 270 winchester rifles. The 270 is a common caliber available anywhere and shoots flat enough to 300 yards to drop anything inside the lower 48. Also doubles as a cheap sniper rifle if all else fails. For defense I bought a Marlin 1894C rifle in .357 magnum and topped it off with a 4x Burris scope. A better urban defense gun for the “defensive” minded person would be hard to find. I also have a revolver of the same caliber. (purchase speedloaders) I purchased all the critical spare parts I might need in case something were to fail and can fix it at home. I can carry a ton of .357 ammo.. For food gathering I have a Marlin semi auto .22lr and two single shot 20 gauges. The levergun, the .22 and the shotguns can be taken down and hidden inside a standard military style green duffle bag. A pump shotgun is a great choice for the person who can only own one gun but for me I prefer my single shots as that is what I was raised with since I was very young… A cheap box of bulk 20 gauge ammo from Walmart will go a long way towards putting food on the table… In these forums I see way too much attention paid to the fancy military style weapons rather than how your going to eat, sleep and travel. I plan to avoid all conflict unless forced into it. I’m too old for running gun battles. In the forest I would much rather be the hunted than the hunter. I know how to hide.

    Reply
  • eieio December 6, 2013, 1:10 am

    Assumption: New to firearms.

    My suggestion:
    Pistol – .22lr in Ruger MKIII in 6.75 Hunter or 5.5 inch Target barrel, iron sights but prefer good quality small red dot sight (RMR)on the removable Weaver rail. 5 ten round magazines. Aluminum light weight barrel would be a plus.

    Long gun – .22lr Ruger 10/22 T in heavy barrel with good 3×9 power scope. 2 rotary magazines and 10 twenty five round B-25 magazines. If you plan to bug out and carry the long gun in the woods then consider a replacement Tactical Solutions aluminum barrel. This change makes the rifle about 2 pounds lighter. That is about the same weight as 250 rounds of .22lr. The long gun will be the primary hunting weapon for precision shot placement.

    I enjoy shooting accurate .22lr firearms and for the subject application, I would want him to enjoy the development of his shooting skills (short and long range) first. Master the fundamentals of gun manipulation without much recoil and gain shooting experience to the point that the next logical step may be to obtain a larger caliber platform (battle field pick up).

    These are not combat weapons. They are accurate survival tools. Tools to be used for accurate placement of the shot up to 150 yards for food procurement or possibly other things. They can be pressed into defense but if you go that route, even with center fired weapons, it will come down to shot placement and the possible follow up shot.

    The .22lr weapon will allow for shot placement training. Because .22lr provides minimal energy dump required for larger game, precision shot placement is the key. Also, with the .22lr weapon generous trigger manipulation should always be a consideration.

    The .22lr round is possibly the most available ammo in the world. Right now it is almost impossible to obtain .22lr ammo but if you think about it there are massive stockpiles of it throughout the country. Folks are hoarding the ammo. It will be available again (hands in prayer).

    The ammo is (or was) cheap, light weight, has a report that can be moderated, and can put food on the table. One could hunt and feed a family by shooting small game in a wooded area and not alert the game and other hunters in the area of your efforts.

    If I had a choice of ammo: 2 types. Target grade ammo in 4o gr round nose lead 1080 feet per second for hunting feather and small fur. And CCI Mini Mag 40 gr round nose lead 1240 feet per second for medium fur and (if you had to) defense.

    If I wanted to stay foot mobile and as stealthy as possible but have some defensive measure in a SHTF situation, I would take the pistol mentioned above. I would avoid confrontation. If you cannot avoid it, get real close.
    eieio

    Reply
  • Chuck Findlay December 6, 2013, 2:28 pm

    I really dislike the word hoarding as it relates to the supplies. I (we preppers) have put away. It’s not my fault others did not see the need to build their supplies up when the item was freely available for everyone to buy. I thought ahead and built up a somewhat large supply of all kinds of things including ammo. I would guess I have 70,000 22 long-rifle rounds that I have been buying since I worked at a gun shop in the 1980s. I’m not a hoarder; I’m a guy that saw the writing ahead and planned for it. I have at least a years worth of food, so much that my basement is looking like a warehouse.
    We need to stop playing the media and government’s wood games and stop calling a person with a supply of items that is more then they (the media) think is normal. The word hoarder is used to imply that the supposed hoarder has done something underhanded and maybe even detrimental

    Reply
    • Glacialhills December 7, 2013, 9:16 pm

      Just a heads up, went out shooting this summer and a friend brought some 22 that he had bought in 1986 at a going out of buisness sale for .29 cents a box of 50 stored properly and still looked new…I would say 1 out of every10- 15 or so FTF. So the stuff does not last forever. Center fire rifle 7.62×39 OTOH I have from the early 1970′s that goes bang every time No FTF to date.

      Reply
  • Chuck Findlay December 6, 2013, 2:33 pm

    to those that have not so much as bought a weeks worth of canned food to be used in reserve for bad times. If nothing else I am allowing FEMA to focus on others in need and I’m taxing the supply system less because I don’t need them to live.

    Sorry I don’t know why this did not post with the rest of my post above, but here is the rest of my above post.

    Reply
    • Tolik December 6, 2013, 3:10 pm

      Do you really think FEMA itself is going to survive a complete economic meltdown ? All its distribution centers are going to be under siege , its so incompetent that it will not get the order to mobilize in time to do anything but send people into an area to be a target . The only people in the government that will be doing anything like clockwork are all our elected officials that already have their plans made well in advance for leaving the country ………….everybody below them will be stuck holding the bag . THe heads of our government will be conveniently out of the country or ” on vacation ” when it hits . They know . Back to FEMA , They had a large group of FEMA staying at the extended stay hotel I was at during a project I was on out of town , they all had FEMA shirts , cargo pants and military boots on …………Not one of those kids could find their ass if they tried with both hands . They had a hard time parking the van , let alone pretend to be able to look after anyone else . First thing that popped into my head was ” they all gunna die or get raped …….then killed “

      Reply
  • Infantry architect December 7, 2013, 7:52 pm

    Gentlemen: (and Ladies as applicable)
    This is a oft tossed about topic and one I am approached by people to respond to this query in both my personal and professional circles of influence.
    Notice that both the author and the various respondents have all made recommendations of arms which are not among those selected by any major military to equip its infantry.
    There are great distinctions between a main battle rifle (MBR) and a sporting or self defense arm. My baseline assertion for my reply is that it is far easier to employ the battle rifle into the roles of sporting/hunting/self defense/ training, than making the sporting/self defense arm even close to on par with the MBR in an actual firefight.

    The military issues an infantry soldier one weapon. not two or three.
    That person is trained to a high level of competence with that one weapon.
    This weapon is always issued to be of the following attributes:
    Semiautomatic/select fire capable
    magazine fed,
    center fire rifle cartridge based with a cartridge and sights capable of taking down a man sized target from at least 250 meters
    in common production
    highly durable composition
    easy to maintain and service.

    There are 3 major international and US found MBR cartridges; 5.56 NATO, 7.62×39(The AK round) and 7.62×51(7.62 NATO)
    Each cartridge has its merits and shortfalls, as do the most popular platforms which launch each respective cartridge.
    Given just $1000 what should a person do?
    If that is your budget, and its a major hurdle to get the that first $1k and future firearms/ammo/accessory/training budget is similarly restricted to never exceed that amount per year out into the future, then your prospects are really dim, and one should get one weapon, stock spares, stock ammo, and train to a high degree of effectiveness with that one weapon.
    While the AK family of weapons is not my first choice they do have the merit of being very robust, and the most affordable of ammo.
    the 7.62×39 cartridge is capable of taking deer/pig/sheep/turkey size game and be a valid deterrent to both 4 and two legged predators.
    The sights are crude, further budget allowances should be allocated to “Tech sights” brand upgrade to the rear aperture sight.
    A sporter version called “Saiga” still takes the same mags as an AK and are routinely on gunbroker.com for $398. another $350 for a case of ammo and the remainder of the funds spent on mags, a sling, spare parts and a good take down/maintenance manual and $1000 is all gone.
    But you will have a very robust weapon and ammo to get oneself through the worst of times. Survive those days, and there will opportunity aplenty to pick up other weapons to suit special functions.
    In the event of actual defend your life firefight with pump shotgun with 8 rounds capacity and a 30 yard max range and a glock 9mm with a similar effective range and a couple 17 round mags, you’ll wish you had an MBR with a 25o yard max range and a chest rig with pouches of 30 round mags.
    The shotgun and handgun should be 2nd and third acquisitions AFTER your MBR, ammo, spares, mags, manuals and training.
    Adding a 22 is also a great idea.
    But we are all concerned about SHTF and TEOTWAWKI. How, Why and When SHTF occurs is a wild card variable, but either
    A. There will be Chaos and Competition for dwindling resources and a resultant die off of up to 90% of society due to war, disease famine, FEMA, Zombies, WTF who knows
    OR
    B. there will be a sudden die off and if your among the 10% you get to pick up the pieces.

    Certainly in any conceivable “A” scenario, you’re going to need that MBR way more than a concealed carry gun or short range, low capacity scatter gun.
    After the die off an an “A” scenario worry about that nice Ruger 10/22 because until its “all clear”, you’re not going to be rabbit hunting or training, since shooting will give your position away.
    All the shooting will be about territory and essential human resources, water, food fuel, shelter.
    Get a crossbow to take game silently.

    if your $1000 budget does not include ammo, use the $350 for amour to buy a PASGT or MICH helmet and a Plate carrier and some SAPI plates, and a set of ballistic eye wear.(according to the book “War Surgery” 40% of battle field injuries are eye injuries).

    If your $1000 budget is for the weapon only and other money is available for everything else, skip the AK and step up to the PTR91. this rifle launches the much more powerful 7.62 Nato Cartridge, and the weapon has much better sights, still hold back on the shotty and glock until you’ve really trained and stocked up on ammo and gear for your MBR, and body armor.
    I have trained extensively with the M-16 / AR-15 rifles and am amazed to find them at only $660 at the local Walmart.
    if a review of these low cost AR rifles finds them to be milspec durable and reliable they are an attractive option as well, especially if you are of smaller stature and/or your future scenario predicts your situation to be highly mobile, especially as part of a group similary equipped.
    But I prefer 7.62 NATO of the following reason.
    in the Infantry Platoon, there are 38 men. The arms consists of M-16s /M-4 M-203 Grenade Launcher, M-240/249/SAW gunners and just two M-60/7.62 NATO machine guns.
    But we are all taught 40% of the entire platoon’s firepower comes from those two 7.62 caliber machine guns.
    In summary if caught, by surprise, and/or outnumbered, but not killed outright, I want to fight back with a powerful high capacity weapon which will dominate the firefight, penetrate cover, and lay down a base of suppressive fire such that others I may be protecting can maneuver away from danger.
    Is a 7.62 NATO MBR over kill for hunting Bambi? sure, but if I can only carry one weapon, make it one which does all things well.
    never come to a gunfight with only a handgun.
    Semper Fi

    Reply
    • Glacialhills December 7, 2013, 10:05 pm

      You are 100% right on the money with your assessment.

      I conducted a test back when you could buy an SKS for 69 bucks. I took one and propped it loaded magazine empty chamber in a secure area outside completely in the elements. Rain, snow hot sun cold ice. And about every couple months I shot the 10 rounds out of it and then reloaded and put it right back in its spot…no cleaning, no oil nothing but scrape the goop off from the bolt and fired away.

      I did put a cover over the barrel( a weather proof old missing its twin leather glove is all) so as to not plug it and explode on me but other than that I trashed it.

      After 15 months I had to bang the bolt open to load it and it FTC (failed to cycle) the first 3 rounds, then it fired the rest and I called it good because it was starting to get dangerous, but that just goes to show how much abuse an SKS will take and keep firing. And after I cleaned it up it was in pretty reasonable shape, with minimal pitting, and gas ejector still very good.Hell even the wood is in good shape and I still use it to this day.Hunting rifles are not even in the same league as Battle rifles, Maybe that’s one reason why ole joe B was told to push shotguns so hard…cause they are easy to defeat by a ballistic shield. And are only good at taking down an unprotected foe’s at short range?

      Hand guns and hunting rifles have their place but I sure would not want to have to trust a handgun for total protection…only concealed last resort.

      Reply
      • Anonymous December 11, 2013, 1:05 am

        thank you. Excellent reply. Great to hear just how much abuse the SKS can recover from. I have a real fondness for this rifle, never has one ever jammed on me, and I can always put the round in the black with the original sights at 100meters. Tech sights are available for the SKS as well.

        Reply
    • Steve suffering in NJ December 7, 2013, 11:31 pm

      Here too with the .22. To that point, during the major ammo shortages a few years ago I couldn’t find common calibers. No 9mm, 45, .223, 308. Some .40, plenty of 357/38, 270, 410 762×54.
      Sometimes having the odd duck caliber isn’t such a bad thing.

      Reply
    • Steve suffering in NJ December 7, 2013, 11:50 pm

      Very well said. Your points are tough to argue. Appreciate the incite. Own a saiga, very happy with it. Got a .223 model mags are a little $$ otherwise 0 complaints.

      Reply
      • Anonymous December 11, 2013, 1:21 am

        Thank you. Your present .223 Saiga is certainly good enough for most jobs and is likely to never fail you. .223 Ammo just keeps getting better. You might really like some of the products offered by Hornady. their website does a great job showing ballistics. They have a 75gr .223 Superformance round which maintains nearly DOUBLE the energy at long distance than other .223 rounds. (at 500 meters 578 ft lbs, compared to 300 ft for typical 55gr) might be good to have just one magazine loaded with these.
        http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-bthp-Superformance-match/
        If I understand correctly the .223 version takes the same mags as the Israeli Galil. If so, its not a bad thing and the israeli quality of weapons is probably worth the extra expense of the mag, so don’t worry, its not money wasted.
        Cheers!

        Reply
        • Anonymous December 15, 2013, 9:55 pm

          I still say that an FAL would be far easier to maintain than the majority of ARs . Magazines are cheap and plentiful as well . But whats right for one may not be for others .

          Reply
  • Ray December 7, 2013, 8:48 pm

    In this context the primary reason that the battle rifle exists (killing people) is SECONDARY (IF it ranks that hi) to the reason for owning a survival weapon. Modern military weapons have versatility as ,at best, a secondary consideration. Military weapons are developed around unlimited on demand resupply. a survival weapon MUST do its job indefinitely with only the ammo parts and tools you have in your possession when the balloon go’s up. Everybody remember how difficult/expensive it was to find SINGLE replacement magazines/ammo/parts just ONE year ago? How hard will it be to find parts/magazines/ammo when the supply chain is cut forever ? Magazines for SIG’s -M-14′s- FAL’s ECT. ECT. are north of 30$-$50 NOW . Are you really going to buy a weapon that uses magazines that ARE import banned? Or Do you plan to trade that Glock/Sig/FN with a 120$-$500 a pop mag for my revolver?(no thanks).— No matter what else happens the UN small arms /ammo/parts IMPORT /EXPORT BAN is a done deal. No more parts, no more magazines ,no more ammo will be shipped from ANY country TO ANY country for civilian use/sale. Whatever is in the pipeline NOW is it forever. Magazine Capacity is irrelevant , Marksmanship is everything. Killing them graveyard dead with the first shot helps too. For that you need a bullet that kills first time every time–and the 5.56×45 ain’t it.

    Reply
  • Infantry Architect December 8, 2013, 4:26 pm

    A half truth is harder to defeat than an outright falsehood. Marksmanship IS the Hallmark of the American Rifleman. This precept is fundamental to the American infantry concept, especially for the Marines. This fundamental infantry concept is why the USA held on to full length battle rifles for a long time, the M1 Garand, M-14 and M-16 platforms, all up until well into the 1990′s were all full length rifles. the A2 version of the M-16 even mounted better sights and a NON chrome lined bore to help achieve 500 meter accuracy.
    Having said that, and being an actual former infantry 11B soldier, then later and 11X Airborne Infantry lieutenant, I learned from Infantry training and practice at Ft Benning, Ft Campell, Ft Riley, Ft McCoy and others that the concept of suppressive fire, and aggressive movement and fire tactics such as bounding overwatch are key fundamentals to actual infantry tactical success (along with force multipliers such a call for indirect fire, helios, APCs, fast movers, company supported crew served weapons, and even the use of claymores and commo to support defense and coordinate movement.)
    I am here to tell you that from all my training, and research, men are hard to kill, and that despite my agreement on one point, that 55.6×45 is a marginal “survival” cartridge, there is NO bullet which as claimed ” that kills first time every time” The German 8mm may be argued as superior to M1 Garand 30.06 and Soviet 7.62×54 may be superior to both. But;
    Men have somehow survived rounds from both. Moving up the scale, .50 BMG as fearsome and devastating it undeniably is, in event of a non center of mass hit, it may amputate, maim, but leave one able to tie it off with a tourniquet and fight until finally succumbing to shock or other as seen by WWII air crews in combat.
    in his Book “One Bullet Away”, the Marine Force Recon Author notes his squad leader spoke poorly before combat of the 5.56 round, but in actual combat they were satisfied with the terminal ballistic performance. but others disagree with also good evidence. But the thrust of this reply is not that topic.
    Read books on combat, or interview actual men who have survived combat, or even just watch youtube videos of maineprepper, an actual combat vet of multiple tours in the sand box, and you find there is a universal agreement in the need for volume of accurate suppressive fire to prevail against a group of armed combatants. Magazine capacity is not irrelevant.
    Reloading time is HIGHLY relevant.
    Buy AT LEAST 12 magazines with the rifle. buy AT LEAST 1000 round with the rifle, preferrably 2000. That is 1,000 for training, (you will need it) and 1,000 minimum for SHTF. Expect to burn through 200-300 in a single firefight, IF you survive the first 5 seconds. If you do survive the initial seconds, your ability to lay down suppressive fire and counter maneuver from cover to cover is essential to your continued survival.
    The concepts eposed by the above poster are of the pre WWI mentality when men went to war with both action Mausers , Enfields & 1903A3. The Machine gun changed the face of the battle field over 100 years ago, and the Nazis perfected the Blitzkrieg over 70 years ago. Since that time much has been learned by actual engagements, and arms have developed in a response to this. The m-16 A2 has been replaced by now 3 generations of M-4 carbine. and the M-14 with a shortened 18 Barrel and various stock types in back in active service with both the Army and Marines and SEALS.
    As to the comment about military unlimited supply vs. survival type weapons, and to killing people as only a secondary reason to own a firearm Post SHTF, I disagree.
    1. Any Military Arm is more robust in durability of parts compared to any civilian arm of similar function type. The SKS comment is good example. (the only faults of the SKS are the non detachable magazine, and the crude sights) But having tried civilian arms in rugged back county setting, one finds many, (not all) lack the durability of military arms. Blued finishes and varnished wood is fading from most recent civilian production, but there remains a difference in the milspec and civilian. For example the Mossberg 590 WAS the MilSpec 12 ga, but the MilSpec version includes heavier barrel, steel trigger guard, steel safety, and parkerized finish. all upgrades from the basic civilian, blued and plastic version.
    Also take a look at gun broker.com in the antiques section at old revolvers, and other civilian arms. Nearly all have problems, timing, lock up, return spring, and or trigger issues, especially double actions. lots of small springs and screws to work loose and wear out. The military arm is made to go through mud and muck and be cleaned and put back together. In 13 years carrying the M-16 I have suffered though its iterations and failures and learned to operate it and keep it running as millions of others have,(and newer versions are better, but still my 3rd and not my 1st recommendation for civilians) but i have only had two parts breakages. A M16A-1 handguard crack (solution, buy aluminum for personally owned version) and an extractor spring pop off and go missing, ( solution, not necessary to strip the parts down that far most of the time, but this spring was replaced in the field for over a month with a twist of pipe cleaner wire and the gun ran fine on nasty fouling blanks)
    2. I completely disagree that killing humans is a distant second place to use for an arm post SHTF. While I hope TEOTWAWKI never happens, when it does, expect defense as a primary weapon use.
    Otherwise we are not talking about SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
    In the great depression my grandfather got by with a 30-30 and a break action .22lr over 20ga. But those were the days men would politely wait in a bread line, and offer to do work for a meal and to sleep in a hay loft. We are now in the Post L.A. Riots, Post Katrina, Post 20 years of Black Friday Walmart shopper shooting/riots. the current generation will NOT wait in a bread line or rake leaves for a meal. Things will end very badly and the arm you choose needs to be up to the task.
    Hunting with a firearm during SHTF will bring people to your location.
    Why would they NOT take from you what you hunted, if they are starving.(hence my crossbow reference)
    A husband and wife with a pair of military semi autos, and proficient because of 1000 rounds of military type training schools behind them and a stack of magazines and body armor would be well prepared to counter looters, (and etc) and preferable to any civilian weapons combination I can dream up for similar expense.
    I’ll maintain the cheapest way to enter this club is with a 7.62×39 Saiga, a dozen or more mags, 2x cases of ammo, a kevlar helmet and plate carrier with ESAPI plates or frag coated AR-500/ HY-80 etc plates. Add IFLAK kit, suture kit, fish antibiotics, a ghille suit would be a good idea, or at least multicam or German Flecktarn uniform.
    That’s the least you should do.
    Better if both you and the significant other are identically equipped.
    Go to a school, Purchase FM 7-8 or other infantry manual or even better buy a copy of “The Ranger Handbook”.
    The fire and maneuver possible when are two are trained together is so far and above a solo person with a revolver and a shotty.
    However; if you are not physically able to train or time or money constraints prohibit this, then I do recommend a shotgun. The shotgun is a very limited in range and magazine capacity, BUT buckshot DOES increase hit potential for all shooters. if you are a lefty you may prefer the Mossberg 500/590 because of the ambi safety. if you can afford more, then a Siaga 12 with a stack of mags, and a drum could be a fearsome short range defensive tool. especially given persons of limited training or physical mobility defending a static location. If static, more body armor required, add gas masks, and fire extinguishers, nomex camo or flight suit.
    Read up on the shotgun tactics of the US Army in the Trenches of WWI. they used a 5 man team. 4 shotguns two pump shooters, two reloaders, and rear guard with a bolt 30.06. THIS was a FEARSOME force! so much so the Germans called for the banning of the shotgun from the battlefield. the shotty was often the Winchester 1897. this and many others of the era did not have a “trigger disconnect” meaning, you could hold the trigger down and keep pumping out rounds w/o re-squeezing the trigger. (Note this is NOT safe for hunting!!) but in an assault its as fast as you’ll get w/o a semi auto. if you choose a vintage shotgun for this feature, please buy low recoil rounds to protect the life of the firearm. these rounds are lower pressure. lethal, but less range.
    Buy a hacksaw and keep it handy, for after SHTF maybe some rules will not longer matter.
    good luck everyone.

    Reply
    • Ray December 9, 2013, 6:34 am

      How about no magazines at all. I have no intention of being involved in infantry ground combat. I do not need or even want an “assault weapon” . HI cap weapons may be the berries in war (for my money the jury is still out on that one) but It is obvious that your idea of “survival” involves a running firefight. I’ll bet you have a closet full of multi-cam and every Geardo do-dad ever made. Sorry dude but I’m WAY too old for that BS. IF TSHTF I’ll stick with my M-1903 or my Garand .My 1897 or 1892 Winchesters. My 870. or my Mauser X. Newer will not make things better , deadlier or cooler. Survival (outside combat) isn’t about how many magazines you carry , or your cammo pattern, and has not one single thing to do with cutting down the barrel of your weapon. Drum magazines, body armor, Nomex? Plan on becoming a marauder or shooting up a school? Got a SWAT standoff in your plan? Gear cannot make you cool; or deadly, you cannot eat it, and I myself don’t even want to try to carry 12 loaded magazines , body armor and a five day ruck + MOPP gear (I did that S*** long before you were born, IT HURTS. I also learned that there are no deadly weapons-only deadly men , and gear won’t make people smarter) Kid you are doing everything the hard way.—- P.S.—- Any of my three 1897 Winchester shotguns is perfectly safe to hunt with .The disconnector “issue” is a matter of TRAINING not HARDWARE. FYI I have owned several cross bows over the years , I prefer my Bear Kodiak Magnum or my home made long bows –I knap my own flint knives and arrowheads too, you should try it. Kid, survival is not about “stuff”, or “reloading time” or any of the BS you “learned” from the internet; its about skills . Try getting out in the woods and on the range with “primitive weapons & tools” and “obsolete arms ” you’ll be in for a real eye opener! Read the stuff Jane and Jarhead and R.W. are DOING . They go outside and garden, they camp , they PRACTISE they TRAIN.– and!– That “AR-500″ armor? My M-1903 Springfield firing M2AP will knock holes in it with every shot out to 300 yards. Unless you are going to fight the unbeliever or believe the zombies are coming (if you do seek help) , I see little use of it. IMO most of your suggestions are only good if someone wants to “die on a bed of brass”, or for going “out in a blaze of glory” . Unless you plan to eat people.

      Reply
      • Infantry Architect December 10, 2013, 4:58 am

        Another example where a partial truth is more work to reply to than a full falsehood.
        Its true some AR 500 armor can be penetrated by .30cal M2AP ammo at limited range, possibly up to 300 meters. but so will many heavy hunting cartridges. Solution: Wiki ESAPI. An M1 Garand is an effective survival tool, but I’ll maintain your 03/a3 is a 12 round per minute arm even in trained hands. and after 12 rounds of recoil of .30M2AP, through a bolt action, into most shoulders, lost of folks would like to stop shooting it. I don’t much enjoy my 7.62 bolt action either.
        the 1897 is a very serviceable and durable arm which I also own, but if one was not raised up on firearms without a trigger disconnector, it would be irresponsible to recommend such arms for hunting to people who have never experienced this. Accidents because of the lack of disconnector are numerous, and why its a feature is not routinely available today.
        As for the other “obsolete arms” mentioned, I have an 1894 but not the 92, poor archery skills, like many people, so the crossbow recomendation to allow quiet POST SHTF hunting, as it may be illegal to use in many states. I do practice blackpowder shooting with a civil war ere revolver clone and like this handgun very much. Its important to have such items and skills if/when ammo really does dry up, at least till primer caps are also gone. The black powder revolver is legal in some countries where modern arms are outlawed. I can almost see that happening here someday.
        We garden, we camp, we train. Not sure how aged you are, but I do understand as we enter infirm years and/or have others to care for, that a static defense is necessary. But Also not sure that as I rapidly approach 50 myself “kid” is even remotely close to accurate but thanks for the compliment. My knowledge base is earned though boots on ground time an an Infantryman, mostly back in the 80s, and continued experience by taking putting on the gear on Saturdays and using it in training of younger guys, and reading books of others experiences, and like all of us here, yourself included, some internet reading, but that’s not the primary source of my experience. Muddy Saturdays would be #2 input after my time as a grunt.
        Just because you do not want to own an assault rifle, does not mean that they will go away, nor should we ignore the admonitions of those who have survived combat. If the surviving Vietnam vets who trained me as a young infantryman, and Infantry LT are strong proponents of “laying down a base of suppresive fire” and “fire and maneuver” Then this is the advice I will heed. Nothing more recently coming from vets of the sandbox seems to contradict this either. It would be unusual indeed not to acknowledge the M-16 has become the M-4 over 40 years, and we did not go back to the 1903/a3.
        Because I preserved my health and fitness late in life does not mean I am unsympathetic to your plight.
        If you are to plan on a static defense, then, of course, forgo any camo. but even if you are rural,and armed and dangerous men, you can be burned out. So yes, nomex, fire extinguisher and a mask, Research how tribal factions under Mugabee dealt with white landowners in Africa. Its a sad story.We have a homestead too I would prefer to defend than flee as well. Much too loose by leaving, but its necessary to consider this possibility. My ruck is heavier feeling than in my 20s and 30s, but that’s why we own vehicles, 4×4 and failing that; bikes with trailers, since we were competitive cyclists for years.
        Yes my vision of post SHTF includes a mass human die off. I wish it were not true, but there are too many evidences to support this. For this reason we have relocated far from urban areas, I hope SHTF never comes to pass. I once read an article on the Nazi siege of Leningrad. It sounds like in these extreme circumstances, after they ate the dogs, the rats, sawdust, some did turn to cannibalism. When I see today, people’s bad behavior in “flash mobs” and “the knock out game” and black Friday shopping riots, all happening during “normal times” it becomes very easy to extrapolate people’s behavior potential when a shortage of resources to actually survive causes competition for those resources.
        I hope this helps clarify my position on the matter.
        Best Wishes,

        Reply
  • shivam December 9, 2013, 12:40 am

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    Reply
  • Chuck Findlay December 9, 2013, 1:20 pm

    One firearm that is overlooked is the small pocket pistol. I have several of these in 22 and 25 cal. The reason I think they are overlooked is that people tend to want a powerful gun to take the bad guy out in one shot. In today’s world of TV / Video game blood & guts flying all over the place they think that they will always have a gun on them that will blow the bad guy back 5 feet. I have numerous firearms (like 35 or 40) and I love my 45-Auto, my 357 Mag’s my 41 Mag, but I don’t carry them with me at night when I take a bag of garbage out to the trash can, I don’t have them on me when I check to see if my truck is locked, I don’t have them on my when I check the mail box. Why not? Because they are big and cumbersome and we all tend to put heavy things down on the counter (or wherever) when we are doing the things we all do in our lives. But my Colt & Beretta’s, are easy to put in your pocket and have on you all the time. Are they going to blow the bad guy’s arm off? No, but then a 357 Mag will not blow anyone’s arm off either. Given a choice a bigger caliber is better, but a 25 Auto is much better then nothing and no one is going to shrug off 6 or 7 bullets from a 22 or 25 Auto.
    I know someone will say (as they always like to argue in gun debates) that there is no reason to not have your 45 Auto (Insert your favorite shooter here) at all times. But this is a bit unrealistic for most people to do every waking moment. So in steps the pocket gun to still give you protection when a larger gun doesn’t fit the situation.

    And a pocket handgun needn’t cost a lot. A Raven 25 Auto can be bought for $70.00, they are reliable (In 1984 Raven Arms marked the manufacturer of their 1,000,00o gun) I use to sell a lot of them at the gun shop and they go bang just as well as a Glock.

    Reply