Tips On Staying Alive When the Bullets Start to Fly

Note: we’ve been having some issues with WordPress and getting our posts on the blog reliably (you probably noticed last week was pretty sparse in the post department) so Jarhead Survivor was kind enough to post this for me. -Road Warrior

For the past couple months, shootings seem to be all I see on the news. Violence is running rampant, and though the people doing the shootings seem to definitely have mental illnesses or grudges, you can’t help but wonder if this is the new status quo for our country. With all the attention and media hype given to the subject, (I’d go so far as to bet that if the media stopped reporting and sensationalizing this violence, the number of shootings would drop – but what do I know?) as well as the always present debates of gun control and help for the mentally ill, it seems to me that these acts of violence are becoming more and more prevalent in society today as a way to “show the world” what your problems are, what your beliefs are, and how far you’ll go to show what a martyr you’ll be for your own cause. It’s appalling and frightening – and a reason to be prepared.

 The shooting that has held my ear the longest is the one that happened last week in Las Vegas, Nevada. As of right now (June 10, 2014) the details are still pretty fuzzy about what happened, but a couple of stories you can read here and here seem to sum up most of the news stories that I’ve read pretty well. In a nutshell, a man and his wife, two people who were dissatisfied with the government and authority, decided to start their own two-man revolution. They packed all their arms and ammunition (a .38 revolver and an “AR-1” rifle or a shotgun) into a backpack, and walked past their neighbor on the way out the door. They told their neighbor that “they had to do what they had to do” and that they were “sorry”. The neighbor, even though she witnessed the couple walking out the door with guns, did nothing, even after the cryptic conversation. Several hours later, the couple, Jerad and Amanda Miller, walked into a pizza joint at an aging strip mall where two on-duty police officers were eating lunch. After yelling something akin to “this is the start of a revolution!”, the couple gunned down the officers, stripped them of their duty handguns and ammunition, and walked across the street to the local Wal-Mart.

image from Facebook/breitbart.com

Folks, what happened at the Wal-Mart is what’s really caught my attention, because it really hits home personally. The details of the happenings inside the Wal-Mart haven’t come out 100% yet – I’m sure they will soon – but from what I can gather, here’s what happened: The Millers walked in the door of the Wal-Mart. Amanda Miller grabbed a shopping cart, presumably to disguise herself as a shopper, while keeping her husband covered. Jerad Miller fired a handgun into the air, and yelled to everyone that “the revolution” had begun, for everyone to clear out if they didn’t want to get hurt, the cops were on their way.

 I haven’t seen security camera footage yet, but I have to assume that at this point, the entire populace of the Wal-Mart at that time instantaneously panicked. After a second or two of “What the hell was that?!” I’m sure people in the back of the store ran forward to the entrance, only to find people who didn’t take immediate cover running for the back of the store. Cashiers must have gasped and ducked behind registers. People surely jumped on their cell phones to call the police or perhaps film the event (a phenomena I don’t understand…”I’m in danger! Better film it!”). Fathers and mothers grabbing their children and herding them behind cover.  I imagine that for several seconds, the tens of thousands of square feet of that Las Vegas Wal-Mart was 99.999% reactionary, and that reaction was confusion or “Oh, shit.”. Fight or flight.

 Enter bystander Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31. He told his friend he was going to confront Jerad Miller, and drew his concealed handgun, which he had a legal permit for. Reportedly, his intentions were to stop the man with the gun so nobody got hurt. I don’t know if he took cover, I don’t know what he was armed with, or how the confrontation went down. I do know that well-meaning Joseph was gunned down by Amanda Miller, from a shot in the ribs he never knew was coming. Amanda, posing as a customer, had circled around and shot Joseph in the back. He died on the scene. The Millers then got in a gunfight with one of the two five-man police teams who entered the building, where they both were wounded. They retreated into the interior of the Wal-Mart, made a makeshift fort out of various materials, and Amanda shot her husband repeatedly, then herself, putting an end to the whole terrible mess. (Evidence has come to light that the police may have shot and killed Jared Miller)

 The reason this hits home for me is because I carry a firearm legally concealed, as do many others I know. We do so to protect ourselves, family, and others from harm…but this is a real wake-up call personally, as I’m sure it is for the hundreds of thousands other people who lawfully carry concealed. It forces us to ask ourselves: how far will we go with this pistol by my side? Where do we draw the line that we want to defend? What can we learn from all of this? I know this is a SHTF site, and you may be expecting to be reading about Bug-out-Bags or water collection, but the fact is that the possibility of being involved or near an incident like this one is much more likely these days than a total societal collapse, and as such, qualifies as a SHTF event in my book. I’m sure for a lot of people in Las Vegas that day, the S did indeed HTF.

 CONCLUSIONS

I’ve never been in a gunfight. I truly hope to never be in one…especially one so horribly one-sided as this. But I have trained under people who have, and conversed with many people more who have. I’ve read books and researched the subject…and while I wasn’t there, I would say that Mr. Wilcox may not have thought things through, and been reactionary without giving consideration to strengths and weaknesses. I’m not critiquing at all; I certainly have no right to. What are the thoughts on the matter? What lessons did I take home that this instance reinforces?

 –If you find yourself in a fair fight, you did something wrong. – Joseph Wilcox, from what I can gather, drew his pistol and confronted Jared Miller, who also had a drawn pistol. At a glance,this seems to be pretty fair odds to me, skills and training notwithstanding. I’m sure Wilcox thought that if things went down, maybe if he caught Miller unaware, he would have the upper hand. But there are many other things to consider: What if Miller had been using illegal substances (reports are the Millers were active users of Methamphetamine.), and therefore could not be reasoned with, and if had to be shot, didn’t react to even a well-placed bullet? This is fairly commonplace with many drugs, I understand. What if Miller had a plan, accomplices, and body armor on? (seems to me that he possibly had all three) These are all things that tip the balance of a fight in one way or the other, things that Wilcox could not have known. So that begs the question: why get yourself into what APPEARS TO BE a fair fight? The balance should be decisively in your favor before you decide to engage.

-If you must confront/engage, do so from a position of strength and cover, with no blind spots if possible. – Think things through. Everyone has been in a Wal-Mart. Assuming this happened while you were in the checkout lane, and you had to react with your weapon, how could you do so from a position of cover AND concealment? Ducking behind a register, rolling your body and gun out so minimal body exposure is allowed comes to mind. Behind a customer service desk, back to a wall, is even better. You never know how many bad guys are there – especially in a high-traffic area like a Wal-Mart. This lack of knowledge killed our good Samaritan. Know the difference between concealment and cover: concealment hides you, cover protects you. Always be aware of your surroundings (part of your OPSEC) and think about what could stop a bullet if it came to that. Keeping in that mindset can never hurt.

-Keep your gun concealed. If you must reveal it, it’s time to start shooting. – In my book, if I have to pull my gun, it’s because I perceive enough of a threat to my or others’ lives to reveal my firearm and end the threat. Period. If you pull the gun and don’t use it or don’t intend to pull the trigger (possibly hoping the show of force will scare off bad guys? I don’t know.), then why bother having the gun at all? Drawing your concealed firearm gives away a prime tactical advantage: if a bad guy sees you with a gun, you are a target. If he doesn’t know you have it, you may be able to get yourself in a better position (i.e. behind cover, civilians out of the line of fire, etc.) without drawing attention to yourself. And if you DO draw that gun, you are in unavoidable danger and should start engaging without hesitation. If that gun is out, it’s no time to be wishy-washy. However, as a counterpoint:

-If you can retreat, do so. If you can get out of there, get the hell out of there! Provide relevant information to the police, ask if you can render assistance. Go home to your family. Miller stated that anyone not wanting to get hurt had better leave; in my book that means that he PROBABLY wasn’t going to be gunning down kids in the vitamin aisle. Be smart; leave if you can. You don’t have backup; cops do. You (probably) don’t have training in active shooter situations. Cops do. Cops have long guns, body armor, and if necessary, armored vehicles. You have what you brought in the store/area. Let discretion be the better part of valor: protect yourself and your loved ones with conviction if you are in imminent danger; however, if you can retreat safely, retreat. Don’t be a hero: this hero died. As an extra caveat, in my home state of Maine, you are only authorized to use lethal force if you have explored all other options and cannot retreat. Granted, this is an extraordinary specific case, Mr. Wilcox’s actions were 100% justified, and had things gone the other way, he would have been in the clear. Which brings up the next point…

-IN AN ACTIVE SHOOTER SITUATION, EVERYONE WHO IS NOT A POLICE OFFICER AND HAS A GUN IS A BAD GUY. When the police get there – and they will get there quickly – they don’t know what went down. All they probably know at the outset is that they have an active shooter inside a heavily-populated area and to stop him/her. Police officers these days are no longer trained to sit and wait for backup in active shooter situations; first one on the scene gets in there and engages to draw potential fire away from civilians. Therefore, if you use your firearm in a 100% justified self-defense situation, and you are covering a downed bad guy, the police will rush in and react to a person with a drawn gun over a prone body, possibly with a somewhat predictable, though mistaken outcome. BE SMART. If someone is with you (as Mr. Wilcox had a friend) tell them to phone the police immediately and tell them that there is someone with your description (what you are wearing, skin/hair color) engaging the bad guy(s). If nobody can do that for you, it might be smarter to retreat to a position of cover and make the phone call yourself rather than having you and the police flying blind. It could very well save your life.

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As of this final update before I post this article (June 18th, 2014, 8 days later) the Las Vegas Wal-Mart shooting has completely fallen off the media radar. However, it’s an interesting case that re-affirms strong points to think about for the men and women who carry concealed. As always, we don’t have 100% of the information on what truly happened. We’ll never know what went through Joseph Wilcox’s mind when he was confronting Jared Miller. I can’t find any security camera videos of what happened to him, or how the showdown went. All we know is that, despite the very, very best of intentions, things went badly. And we have to prepare ourselves for that: no matter how much we prep, no matter how much we read, no matter how much we debate people online in forums, there’s always the possibility of just plain shit luck. Knowing that can happen, we need to learn to be smart, think things through, and tilt the balances in our favor, whether it’s bring extra batteries for the GPS AND learning map and compass skills for when you go hiking, or engaging  an active shooter from behind cover in a super store. It may not be very macho, but at the end of the day, getting home is still the most important thing; and if we learn from others and what happened to them, we up the chances that we will get home by that much more.

Thoughts on this situation? I’d love to hear them…is my head up my ass? Or did this get you to think a bit about how you conduct yourself?

Stay safe and get home.

– Road Warrior

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42 comments… add one
  • Pierce June 18, 2014, 5:21 pm

    I think Mr.Wilcox is the true definition of a hero, yes he died, but he had nothing to gain from trying to save others, it was a truly selfless act from what I have read. But heroes still die. If you’re gonna carry, practice drawing and firing under pressure, and carry at least one reload. If you’ve witnessed the murderers firing shots (I prefer the term murderers instead of shooters, because I am shooter but I don’t murder people), it’s time to engage if you’ve got a clear shot, numerous examples have shown that these murderers don’t negotiate. I also live in Florida, so we have the Stand Your Ground law that most of the anti firearms people hate.

    Reply
  • Katie Randall June 18, 2014, 5:27 pm

    Great article! I have had similar thoughts since the shooting about those that have concealed carry licenses and want to help/react in such a situation. I, like you, do not want to criticize Mr. Wilcox at all. But for the future, I think it’s important for those that get CCW licenses to know that it’s not enough to just have the license and know how to shoot at a target at a shooting range…they need to do the actual training along with mental rehearsals of all kinds of possible scenarios. And you also brought up the important point that’s been on my mind of if you have a gun in your hand when the cops enter, you may very well become their target. Again, excellent article…you hit all the points.

    Reply
  • dsd1 June 18, 2014, 5:50 pm

    this really makes someone think…

    the situation gets complex when what if another concealed carrier was also confronting the “shooter” – you encounter two people with guns pointed at each other – who is the bad guy? how would the other good guy react?

    his wife could have easily been confused as another “concealed” gun owner who was also confronting the bad guy – yet then still shot the “good guy”

    so what do you do? shoot everyone you see immediately who has a gun visible (a la the police) or do you verbally challenge each and every one? which at what point do you get shot by one of them before you can react?

    our local grocery stores have been having a rash of hold ups and each is done by two armed men right at closing time – if you were in the checkout line a similar situation could occur – but after reading this story – what if they had a third man undercover but armed as their back up in the store – and you draw and attempt to shoot the two armed men before they respond to you – someone behind you draws – are they an enemy? or there to help? if you even see them what do you do? do you turn and shoot them too? (what if they are another permit holder hoping to do “good”)

    it certainly gives pause on what to do and how to react… makes me think things over in how i have always perceived how i may handle this type of situation.

    Reply
    • Road Warrior June 18, 2014, 6:20 pm

      The scenario of multiple concealed carry licencees who don’t know each other and have never trained together, engaging a target in a scenario such as this, is a truly frightening, confusing thought. Another reason to bug out if you can. Thanks for the viewpoint, dsd1!

      Reply
    • bob June 20, 2014, 2:59 am

      i suggest play it by military RoE and u should gain good situational awareness before u draw and also engage from the best position availabe to u oh shoot and retreat unarm and find an officer so as not to be shot by cop and other cc or second /third gunman eliminate the threat reposition then if neccesary reengage

      Reply
  • 666 June 18, 2014, 5:57 pm

    Guns are for pussies. Everyone with a gun is a coward.

    Reply
    • Brad June 18, 2014, 6:05 pm

      Thank you for for your well thought out and articulate comment. I am sure you have the data to back it up.

      Reply
    • dsd1 June 18, 2014, 6:26 pm

      wow, i didn’t know hillary read this blog!

      awesome. say hi to bill and huma for me

      Reply
      • Road Warrior June 18, 2014, 6:29 pm

        Hah!!! You guys are alright.

        Reply
        • Anonymous June 19, 2014, 7:11 am

          Damn straight I’m a pussy ! I carry a gun , because I efn don’t wanna die before old age…

          Reply
    • RB June 18, 2014, 6:31 pm

      I’m sure you would have walked right up to the murderer,(I also don’t like the word shooter) and took the gun out of his hand like you seen so many times in Clint Eastwood movies. You are the fearless man! You seem to be highly educated, with your well articulated comment also.

      Reply
    • CommonAmericanLurker August 19, 2016, 8:38 pm

      LOL @ that intelligent comment.

      #Defend2a

      Reply
  • Brad June 18, 2014, 6:02 pm

    The active shooter scenario opens up a whole other can of worms for those who carry. The dynamics of that type of situation requires a different mind set and tactics. This is not a home invasion or a run of the mill armed robbery. You have a herd of panicked people running around. Clear lines of fire become sporadic. If there is more than one shooter things get really ugly. Getting home is the goal and as was pointed out in the article, we do not have the resources that a team of officers has. If the situation is not clearly in your favor then engaging will probably result in you dying nobly. The will be little comfort to your family and friends. Clearing the area and assisting as many others as possible is probably the better choice. If you have no other option then use good tactics and be decisive. I carry to protect myself and my loved ones not to charge into a dynamic hostile environment with limited or no information. Mr. Wilcox made a decision. I respect that he did not freeze or panic. He took a chance that might have saved lives. We would be gravely remiss if we did not learn from his actions. Good or bad.

    Reply
  • Road Warrior June 18, 2014, 6:17 pm

    Another brief, but worth reading article on the subject: http://news.yahoo.com/confronted-gunman-204117499.html

    Reply
  • Ben228 June 18, 2014, 6:26 pm

    I don’t have a CCW permit but I am an armed security officer. There is about 3 paragraphs of legalese in the state law that boils down to ” you can’t draw your weapon until you in need of firing it. Trying to not criticizing Mr. Wilcox either but he used poor tactics and paid the maximum price for his mistake.

    Reply
    • Lance June 18, 2014, 7:47 pm

      During the 1980s I had both my CCW and my Armed Security Officer Supervisor license in the State of Florida yes during the real Miami vice era IT is easy to say that he used poor Tactics but at that time and place I’m sure that Mr.Wilcox Thought that he was going home later that day that did what he was trained to do… I am sure that He thought that his training was keep him alive. Some Guard companies back then do not have the money to train the men but off duty I would make sure a few officers had the Range time every three months or so Over the once per year back then was part of the state law. I have been out for many years

      Reply
  • RB June 18, 2014, 6:43 pm

    I would like to add to this story. If you carry or don’t carry, the best way to win a gunfight is not to get into one. Also if you are in a situation like this. the best thing you can do is put distance between you and the shooter. Don’t run in a straight line away, unless there is cover very close by. Instead run on a angle away from the shooter. It is much harder to hit a moving target. Running straight makes not much of a difference when your are 10 feet or 30 feet away. Running 20 takes an average person just under 2 sec. Think how many rounds may be fired your way without the gunman having to move his gun because you are running straight. On an angle it might take you 3 sec but the shooter doesn’t have a bead on you either. Hope this helps.

    Reply
    • Brad June 18, 2014, 7:03 pm

      Agreed. To add to your point. The eye is attracted to movement . Rapid or sudden movement within the line of sight of the gunman will attract their attention and result in you becoming a target. Moving away at right angles moves out of the line of fire and vision the quickest. Also know you surroundings. The majority of people will head towards the closest exit. This means it will be the most crowded (think stampede in a canyon). Moving to a secondary exit will give you a clearer path and move you away from the herd.

      Reply
  • riverrider June 18, 2014, 9:26 pm

    having been in a similar incident, i can say two things: situational awareness- keep your freaking head up and on a swivel always, not just when shots are fired( go to a public place and watch people looking at the gorund, ipad, cell phone etc.). be aware of and work against tunnel vision-my buddy was killed focusing on the shooter, only to be shot by the getaway driver he walked right past on the way in. take a second to review the area/situation, look for the driver/lookout/ backup. they are easy to spot if you can avoid the tunnel vision. like the poster said, don’t announce your presence like wyatt earp, gun out front. when absolutely no choice, just cap them and stay covered until help arrives.

    Reply
  • Pierce June 18, 2014, 9:35 pm

    I know many people here are about getting away, and I agree with that if you don’t see the shooter gunning down people, but I always says engage because of the Virginia Tech massacre. From what I’ve read, part of the reason the murderer was able to kill so many people is that nobody actively resisted them. And also these murderers tend to give up once they meet resistance, the Vegas shooting being an exception to this rule.

    Reply
  • Greenfeet83 June 18, 2014, 11:03 pm

    As a retired LEO that worked on fugitive details, and still have a CCW. I train/shoot monthly and study situations like these.
    In my view, my role is to insure the safety of those around me and see that they have an safe exit. Depending on the location I may try and keep eyes on the suspect while maintaining contact with the responding LEO’s.
    If I feel that it is necessary to engage, it would be by dropping the suspect. Not verbally confront them. If the weapon is drawn, be prepared to use it. It helps if you live in a “stand your ground” state.
    Having responded to situations similar to this, when the shooter put the suspect down, he assumed the prone position, gun away, as we drew down after arriving. I did cuff the shooter while we sorted things out, but he was released after 7-8 witnesses were vetted on scene and video showed the incident it great detail. Emotions are high, even if you train for this every day! The first duty is protect your family and friends and do what you can to go home when the dust settles.
    I understand the actions of the man trying to do right thing. He did the best he could and God bless him for that. In active shooter situations, keep your head on a swivel, insure you have a concealed safe position and move/decide from there as things unfold.

    Reply
  • Lee June 18, 2014, 11:18 pm

    I think you got it pretty good, I’m an LEO, and these are solid suggestions. I think about such things, as I carry off duty, and I know that without my uniform and equipment, I’m in the same boat as a CCW holder. I have pretty much the same theories. The guys on duty are far better equipped for it, the only thing I can really add, is to know where emergency exits are. People have a tendency to go out whatever door they came it, or know where it is. If you’re closer to a fire exit, try and head for it. There will be a stampede at the exit, and that’s dangerous in and of itself, think of Black Friday in reverse and magnified a dozen times. If you have to run through an “employee only” area, do so! Just go out the closest exit, if it sets off an alarm so be it. Just because it isn’t a fire, don’t mean you can’t go out that door.

    Reply
  • eieio June 19, 2014, 5:13 am

    Too bad there is no hard info reports. I would hope that Wilcox got off the shot (and hit) that forced the couple to stay and barricade themselves in the store. There had to be enough confusion to escape, but not if the murderer was hit.

    eieio – with hands in prayer for Wilcox and the two officers

    Reply
    • Road Warrior June 19, 2014, 5:17 am

      sadly, Wilcox died without ever getting off a shot, from what I’ve read.

      Reply
  • Rick June 19, 2014, 6:01 am

    Good article, well written. I did not realize the author was from Maine. So am I. You make a lot of good points that seem to have been well thought out. I hope I will have the wherewith all to remember these points if I ever find myself in a similar situation.

    Reply
    • Road Warrior June 19, 2014, 7:10 am

      Both Jarhead Survivor and I are from Maine, actually!

      Reply
  • Firestar June 19, 2014, 8:45 am

    I shot IDPA for years and it was a running joke. If you ever got
    into an active shooting situation you should —
    1.) Find cover behind something that will stop a bullet.
    2.) Get a rifle
    3.) Leave the area.

    Reply
  • Geoob June 19, 2014, 11:01 am

    While I have taken the CCW course, I have yet to follow thru with actually getting my license… and I don’t know that I would typically be carrying in a situation like this anyway.

    My recurring thought while reading this article was SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.

    I have three small kids, often in tow. Engaging in a gun fight is not something I would be looking to do.

    We went to the movies over the weekend. The theater was relatively empty, but I made myself aware of every person that was in there… including the middle aged man watching the kids movie by himself. (the rest of the patrons all families with kids) I positioned our seats away from him, and closer to the secondary exit but in a place I could still see him and the main entrance/exit.

    It wasn’t until well into the movie that I realized I had done all of this! I have been working for years to become more aware of my surroundings (and with three small kids the distractions are plentiful!). I was really pleased to see that it is finally becoming second nature to me. Yet I know it is a skill that needs continual practice!

    So, now I will be running this scenario thru my head on my next several trips to Wal-Mart I am sure!

    Reply
  • chilichef June 19, 2014, 11:04 am

    I do think that the post, and most of the comments make good points. Nonetheless, I’m not sure how “generalizable” some of the lessons from this are; certainly, flight may be a safer response than fight; being aware of the situation is critical, and directly confronting a shooter is probably the least safe thing you can do. Nonetheless, there’ve been some comments in the media to the effect that “this proves a good guy with a gun is useless without training”; however in this case the shooters managed to ambush and kill two police officers (who in fact did have training) and the wife was likely able to shoot Wilcox precisely because she was effectively “concealed” by having a shopping cart and not waving a gun around. Civilians with guns manage to stop crimes all the time; whether the particular intervention makes sense depends very much on circumstances, i.e. if someone is actively, and closely, threatening myself or family member is different than this sort of scenario where people can cover or flee. Additionally, I think this kind of points up that it is very difficult to defend any “ambush’ type attack, as opposed to an ‘open’ attack. That’s why people use ambush attacks. It gives the ambusher a tremendous advantage.

    Reply
  • extremesgs June 19, 2014, 1:01 pm

    great article!
    another LE perspective… really just an echo of others

    if there’s one thing to take from it, its “shoot it, don’ t show it”
    I train my department… on duty, we have obligations and policies. Off duty- and i would apply this to non-LE as well- your gun comes out because someones about to die… in turn, you use yours to prevent that from happening. This ESPECIALLY applies when you have loved ones with you! The handcuffs I carry off-duty are to put on the BG after I shoot the fucker, not before.

    “Challenging” a BG only identifies you as “target #1”

    instead, be “hell from the shadows”

    Reply
  • bill June 19, 2014, 3:38 pm

    Road Warrior, I don’t think this could have been better written! Thanks, Bill

    Reply
  • Pineslayer June 19, 2014, 10:08 pm

    RW thanks for the write-up. I did not hear many details as I have been trying to avoid the news. I guess the thing that is sticking in my mind is that the bitch was looking to murder anyone who gets in the way. Very smart of her to blend in, evil. Hard to compensate for pure evil.

    No good deed goes unpunished. So, every man for himself? Also how about the friend who did nothing when they were walking out? She is guilty of ? being complacent? not caring? My condolences to Wilcox’s family. He tried to do the right thing.

    Reply
  • irishdutchuncle June 20, 2014, 3:25 am

    …and another thing, make sure you can put your piece back into its holster, safely.

    Reply
  • Ray June 20, 2014, 8:16 am

    Yeh well….. As of today(6/20/14) the story has changed. It seems our “mass murderers” were LVPD covert informants, with ties to FBI , DHS and homeland security, and had been working under cover to infiltrate drug gangs, the occupy movement and political groups for years(one of the militia guys at the Bundy ranch was a former cop who knew them-that’s why they got kicked out) Everything about this BS story stinks of a paid hit. IMO the “shooters” thought they were in Wal-Mart to meet their handler and EXFIL. Instead they got bumped off.(dead men tell no tales) The whole thing was a setup from the get-go. This kind of thing was common in Vegas in the “bad old days”. I guess they went back to playing “Mob Rules”. Funny how many will scream that the government lies, then swallow any BS they are told by that same government.

    Reply
    • Road Warrior June 20, 2014, 8:30 am

      Interesting side of the story, Ray. Here’s a lengthy article I found that meanders a bit, but explores the thought (and many others) http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/06/13/sin-city-the-las-vegas-shooters-had-a-relationship-with-nevada-police-as-terror-defense-funds-shooting-drills-provided-the-backdrop/

      Reply
      • Ray June 20, 2014, 2:05 pm

        Yeh R.W. , Another thing I find interesting is; that ex-fed P.I. friends tell me that there are many more questions about brother Wilcox than anyone is being allowed to ask. The story is being quashed at a federal level, as are ANY questions about the cops-the Millers, OR Wilcox. Someone VERY high up the food chain wants this one to ether float as is , or go down the memory hole. Also I have friends who are reporters and they tell me this one “stinks a mile high” . The editor of a small news paper who I have known for 30 years tells me that DHS told her “run the story as given or drop it but don’t ask any more questions” . When even the anti-gun left wing newsies think the story stinks you gotta’ wonder.

        Reply
  • sirlancelot June 22, 2014, 12:26 am

    Years ago a off duty LAPD officer engaged 2 scumbags robbing a store. One of them shot his daughter while she hid behind a car trying to distract the off duty officer, but he never noticed thanks to “tunnel vision”.

    I would run if loved ones were present. If alone like other people mentioned don’t wave the gun around, just pop the creep, scan and cover, wait for the Calvary to arrive, go prone and let things get sorted out

    Reply
  • Ray June 22, 2014, 8:19 am

    Guys “If you start getting into gun fights you are gonna get shot”. That rule is just as valid now as it was when John W. Harden said it in 1876. The reason this man got killed was; he thought his CC permit made him a gunslinger, and somehow , in some majic way “better” than the “scumbags”. They say that if you pull a pistol you should be ready to kill. Well …You better be ready to die too, ’cause being right NEVER makes you bullet proof.

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    • Bryan June 22, 2014, 9:40 pm

      I don’t think that’s an accurate portrayal. The man didn’t necessarily think any of those things you’re saying. He probably did think that he had the drop on the guy and that it was a situation of dangerous people that already were firing off rounds, and where killing might happen anyway so he’d better take the opportunity he has now while it exists.

      And guess what, it was all those things. He was right they were dangerous people that already had killed that day, and from what it seems, he did get the drop on the guy. It wasn’t a skewed judgement of the facts he had that got him killed, as you portray. It was the facts he didn’t have that got him killed: the surprise attack from the accomplice. That could happen to any of us.

      Next time you’re in a wal-mart and someone comes in already shooting and you have the drop on him…but maybe he’s coming your way and soon you’re going to lose that opportunity and be totally at his mercy…I’m not gonna judge you for taking it, even if it goes south. Because in the end, I wasn’t there and don’t know squat about it. You judging him is no better than the armchair commandos that sit talking crap about how with their internet expertise they would have cleared half of fallujah single handedly and without a scratch. In either situation: you weren’t there and you don’t know crap about it. So get off the high horse.

      Reply
      • Ticked June 24, 2014, 10:24 pm

        Well put, Bryan.

        Fact remains, we all die someday.

        Reply
  • Ray June 23, 2014, 2:15 am

    Bryan, your attitude makes you the next up for the Darwin award. If you are the kind of moron who got his CC so he could “stop an active shooter” then you are not just an idiot without a clue, but you are a suicidal idiot without a clue. Gun fights are about killing, and no matter how “right” you “think” (or in your case don’t) you are. Dead is still dead. Just because you are the hero in all of your childish fantasy’s doesn’t mean that you get to “win” in real life. I don’t care how many “shoot schools” you attend or how many times you play COD, if you face another man with a gun who means to kill you ,there is a damn good chance you’ll die. There are no such things as “hero’s” only lucky survivors, and the prize for being #2 in a firefight comes with a big plastic bag in a box. The truth is you are the one who has no clue what you are talking about, and I hope for your sake that you never do. I hope you are just young and full of your self .You’ll outgrow that .’Cause right now you are stupid. Nobody can fix stupid.

    Reply
    • Ticked June 24, 2014, 10:45 pm

      Ray, I’m not sure Bryan deserved that response. Fact is, Road Warrior made some very important points. No one wants to end up in a real gun fight, no matter your level of training. If you can exit the situation safely, do so. In fact, it’s best to avoid ever putting yourself or loved ones in that position. But we weren’t there, and Wilcox might have felt threatened by someone who was ALREADY firing. And if you carry (god help you if you ever need to pull it), when would the scenario be “secure” enough to ever follow through? Why even carry? I’m not trying to be flippant here, just curious why that reaction was necessary. No one knows the outcome of a defensive use of a weapon, good or bad, right or wrong…

      Reply

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